Need advice about head gasket.

[laller]

I'm dismayed. For several months now, the temp on my '95' ATX had been fluctuating. I'm thinking, hmm. I had a full service done like less than 2 years ago. Recently, I'd been getting coolant bubbling back into the reservoir until it over-flows, also with rust. Now, starting to over-heat.
It's got about 150k on it, but had been running strong, and I only have about 15k on since a full 60k service.

If it's a head gasket, what would something like that cost? I was hoping to go a lot longer since shelling out the dollars for the 60k before anything else major went wrong. I'm also wondering if it would be cheaper seeing if I can find a used engine and having it swapped out?

I'd appreciate any advice?

Lou

 

[msteiny]

Did you change the water pump during the 60K service? Have you flushed the cooling system lately?

 

[frosho]

Replace your radiator cap. Instead of allowing pressure to build in the system (as it was designed), it is venting pressure into the overflow tank. A new cap should fix your issues.

 

[laller]

The water pump was changed with a lower 60k service appx 2 to 3 years ago.
An upper 60k service was done later (about 1.5 years ago). I didn't do the upper 60k myself though.

I did flush the coolant system a couple of months ago, then picked up a radiator cap from autozone recently. That actually seemed to make matters worse.
Also, now I'm seeming to notice a bit of rough idling for a couple of minutes after starting up cold.

Before, it would run fine the first 5-10 minutes, then the the temp would just fluctuate up and down between the halfway point (usually after I sat at a traffic light).
Now, it runs fine the first 5-10 minutes, then seems to gradually rise.

 

[sperold]

Thermostat. Change it now.
Do a leak test on your rad with a rad cap pressurizer.
You would have disappeared in a cloud of white steam if it were the head gaskets.
You can also look at the plugs on the easy side of the engine, the plugs will be like shiney new if there is coolant in there.

 

[frosho]

I'm still wondering about the radiator cap. The fact that the replacement seemed to cause a change in the car's behavior makes me think that it's related. I wonder if you got a bad one out of the box? Have you inspected the neck of the radiator where the cap seals to make sure it's not dirty or damaged?

It really seems like a rad cap issue to me. That, or the impeller on your water pump is broken causing the coolant to overheat/over-pressurize, but I can't remember ever seeing that before on a SHO.

 

[itwonder]

Use only a Motorcraft radiator cap. RS-90. Pressure test the cooling system.

 

[rubydist]

the symptoms you describe could be due to a head gasket issue - these engines have good head gaskets and when they start to leak they often do not "blow out" but rather just leak in one spot on one cylinder, which could result in your symptoms.

the gaskets are about $45 each, and iirc its about 4 hours labor for the front one and about 4.5 hours for the rear one.

 

[SeanMc]

Replace your radiator cap. Instead of allowing pressure to build in the system (as it was designed), it is venting pressure into the overflow tank. A new cap should fix your issues.

Bingo. Had this happen to me as well, and it was just the cap. Bad cap can show all the symptoms of a blown headgasket. I mean, mine was boiling over, heating up fast, etc, etc, etc. Changed the cap, been great.

 

[sperold]

Another thought.
If it does turn out to be a head gasket, as rubydist suggested, check into your GM dealer and ask about their product that they use to fix their engine water problems. It has a good reputation for stopping water leaks in the engine (I think they have an intake gasket water leak on some of their engines).

 

[sdpatt]

I had a similar situation with the cooling system/head gasket on my car (see topic here). I first had the bubbling/boil over of the the expansion bottle during hot laps on a track day. I did not see fluctuations in the temperature even around the track. It would overflow after stopping because the pressure leak allowed the coolant to boil.

On startup after a long cooldowns, there was rough idling as the cylinder with the coolant would misfire. On cold mornings, there was also a large, embarrasing cloud (really, a cloud) of water vapor condensing at the tail of the car. Finding a puddle of coolant in the #5 cylinder was the telling condition that verified there was a head gasket leak.

Boiling can be cause by loss of pressure. Unless you see evidence of coolant in the cylinders, your condition may be due to lack of pressure retention. Check for leaks in wetted parts of the cooling system or vent paths at high points in the system. Remember that it its the job of the thermostat to maintain a steady temperature.

 

[laller]

update...

I tried replying earlier to this thread, but computer logged me out. Don't know if it went through.

I changed the thermostat. Same symptoms going to work. On the way home, it was dark so I was able to watch my exhaust when people were behind me at a traffic light. I'm definately seeing what seems to be more white fumes than should be accounted for condensation. I had not noticed this before maybe because I had been driving sparingly during the day.

After about 10 minutes, the fluctuating started, then started to rise. I got stuck at another light, had to pull over. Turned engine off, popped the hood. Reservoir bubbling over with rusty coolant. I noticed something I had not noticed before. The radiator was NOT hot. The fans I know work though.

Barely made it home, had to stop several times (25 min ride).
I have not tried a Motorcraft cap yet. A guy at work seems to think it's going to run me at least $1600 to get head gasket done (yikes!). I might try that GM stuff that was suggested, but with what I'm seeing, it may not be so simple. It's difficult to tell with the reservoir overflowing but It definately seems to be loosing coolant and I don't see where.

 

[sperold]

Concentrate on your rad not being hot while you are overheating othewise.
It is hard to get all the air out of the system with these cars.
Does your thermostat have the "giggle valve" on the flat disc part that lets a tiny amount of coolant through when the thermostat is closed. If it didn't, take it out and drill a small hole in the disc to let the air bleed through. You also have to jack the front end of the car way up to get a fake "high point" bleed, or take off those little tubes that go to your throttle body and let the air out there.
And when you check you coolant in the morning or whatever when it has cooled down, always open the rad cap and look in the rad. Do not just look at the coolant bottle for your level as there are conditions when that level doesn't tell you anything.

 

[rubydist]

I agree - if the radiator is not hot when the engine is overheating, that means you have one or more of these issues:
water pump impeller shot, not pumping water
thermostat not opening
low coolant level
blockage in radiator hose

I have seen hoses separate and look good on the outside but be sucked shut on the inside. I have also seen new thermostats not work right. And, as mentioned, it is somewhat difficult to get these engines completely full of coolant.

Check out all of that stuff before you worry about head gaskets.

 

[itwonder]

You mentioned really rusty looking coolant. Possible your radiator is plugged up and coolant is not circulating properly. Try flushing it out by rigging a garden hose to push water in the bottom hose, emptying out of the top hose.

 

[laller]

The thermostat I put in does have a jiggle valve. I drained the radiator again. I spent some time trying to purge air but it seems hard to keep the correct fluid level because after the resevoir bubbles over, the coolant level is no longer correct (I have to keep adding to the radiator).

So it pretty much goes like this: fill coolant, eventually drive, eventually stop. Resevoir bubbles over, radiator now low on coolant.

And it is blowing some white smoke.

Question: Given that all 60k maintenance was done within the last 2.5 years, is it worth having someone do the head gaskets? From reading other posts, it seems the consensus is I might be better off trying to find another engine. But I'm worried about doing that and getting one that might not be any better than the one I have.

 

[sperold]

Fix the one you have, and find out why the rad is not warming up (or conversely, cooling you down).
The white smoke suggest gaskets, but do the test for the other symptoms first (pressure test the coolant, check your codes, read your plugs)

 

[kevinspann]

How much is "some" white smoke?

 

[laller]

How much is "some" white smoke?

Similar to what poster "sdpatt" mentioned, I get more after startup when cold, then it settles some but it doesn't go away. It's not a large billowing cloud, but enough that I can now clearly see it in broad daylight in my rear mirror.