E85 Fuel Blending

[Ta2dResqr]

When I first got my car, I got interested in the idea of E30, E50, E85 etc. However, within a couple weeks, the only nearby gas station with E85 closed. It is currently a 30 minute trek to get E85. Occasionally, when I am in that area, I will throw a couple gallons in before I fill up on 93. Plans were just submitted to build a Sheetz nearby and they seem to very often have E85. In hopes and preperation for this, I would like to start getting my car ready to run a blend and take better advantage of it. I know I will need a tune but beyond that I am having trouble with my research. Unfortunately, "E85" is to short to search and "ethanol" and "fuel blending" are coming up with much. I see some people are running ethanol sensors. Do these get connected to your computer/tuning device somehow to relay the information to the tune? How much ethanol will a GH AO tune adjust for? I have read that fuel supply becomes an issue. I have a LPFP in the works. This should prevent issues with supply to the HPFP, how far have people gone with an ethanol blend on the stock HPFP? Any good threads or articles you can send my way, I would greatly appreciate!

Thanks

 

[SM105K]

I have a buddy out here in AZ that runs E30 on his AO Tune all the time. Really hasn't run into any short term problems.

 

[yaycandy]

I ran a couple tanks of E85 and drove like a maniac. Ran well on my 93 octane tune then i needed a new engine.
True story

 

[stripSHO]

Yeah the sensors are just informational they don't connect to the ecu. I don't use one because I prefer to test the e85 as I fill up rather than find out what I put in my car after the fact.

You don't need any fueling upgrades to run e30. I run e40 comfortably on stock fueling. Can't say definitely though that it makes more power than e30 since the e40 tune is obviously more lean. I've never even tried e30 so i have no comparison. But if you want to upgrade something, get a HPFP. LPFP won't help you.

 

[stripSHO]

I have a buddy out here in AZ that runs E30 on his AO Tune all the time. Really hasn't run into any short term problems.

I cringe to think what his fuel trims must look like. When I had the AO they were already +10% to +15% on straight gasoline

 

[SM105K]

I cringe to think what his fuel trims must look like. When I had the AO they were already +10% to +15% on straight gasoline

I never said it was correct. I have zero idea what the long term will be.

 

[DadMobile]

I cringe to think what his fuel trims must look like. When I had the AO they were already +10% to +15% on straight gasoline

I never messed with the AO tune much but E30 on it sounds bad. Without a datalog who knows, I do know that I wouldn’t do that to my car!!

As far as the the OP’s post goes I use both a sensor and test every so often. Everybody has a different style to suit their needs.

Hopefully get a closer source soon.

 

[Ta2dResqr]

Yeah the sensors are just informational they don't connect to the ecu.

So essentially, you would have to look at your sensor, see what that tank was, then choose a tune that matched that content (eg E10, E30, E50, and E85 tunes)? Currently there is not a system that will take the output of a sensor and use it to adjust your tune as needed based on the fuel being used?

 

[DadMobile]

Correct. The sensor just shows your E rating in real time and that’s it.

 

[FiveLeeter918]

So essentially, you would have to look at your sensor, see what that tank was, then choose a tune that matched that content (eg E10, E30, E50, and E85 tunes)? Currently there is not a system that will take the output of a sensor and use it to adjust your tune as needed based on the fuel being used?

Unfortunately the Taurus SHO PCM is not Flex Fuel and has no way to actually be flex fuel. You can play with the lspi spark tables to get the car to be more sensitive to knock and downgrade spark timing depending on the knock threshold, but getting the car to actually know what octane you're running is a fallacy. The sensors definitely make it easier, and can tie into a gauge or to an app on your phone, but they have no effect on the tune and even still aren't the most accurate since the GM sensor uses is typically used on commuter cars and accuracy isn't a concern on a 200-300hp Flex Fuel vehicle. But it's usually close within 5% or so.

The car does have a pretty advanced system for fuel trimming, so you don't have to have a PhD in Chemistry to blend ethanol fuels and even if you just get somewhat close the car will be fine, but it's the main reason most tuners will want you to start tuning on 91/93 first, to rule out any potential leaks or other issues before the variables of ethanol come into play. You can have up to a 25% swing in fuel trim adjustments before popping a CEL, and while some tuners just leave you on pump gas stoichiometry and let the pcm trim you for ethanol, we like to try to dial it in as close to possible, which not only leads to better performance but it also allows you to use simple math (give you know your fuel trims prior to ethanol) to see how far off you are from your estimation.

With a good E30 tune, you can typically get away with adding 5-6 gallons of E85 (pump E85 is typically around 70% ethanol in most parts of the country) and then 12 gallons of 91/93 to top of the tank.

Stay away from the E30 pre-mixes, those are cut using 87 octane and typically will put you around 89 octane total, which does you no good compared to mixing yourself.

 

[stripSHO]

So essentially, you would have to look at your sensor, see what that tank was, then choose a tune that matched that content (eg E10, E30, E50, and E85 tunes)? Currently there is not a system that will take the output of a sensor and use it to adjust your tune as needed based on the fuel being used?

That, or add more gas/ethanol to correct the ratio. It seems most guys get the sensor for verification/ peace of mind rather than relying on it for mixing.

With an aftermarket ecu anything is possible! But Ford does not use ethanol sensors, even on actual flex fuel vehicles. Instead they have some convoluted scheme that works by monitoring changes in fuel trims following a fill up. Guys are using it on mustangs but I haven't heard of anyone doing it on a taurus and honestly I wouldn't trust it anyway.

 

[FiveLeeter918]

That, or add more gas/ethanol to correct the ratio. It seems most guys get the sensor for verification/ peace of mind rather than relying on it for mixing.

With an aftermarket ecu anything is possible! But Ford does not use ethanol sensors, even on actual flex fuel vehicles. Instead they have some convoluted scheme that works by monitoring changes in fuel trims following a fill up. Guys are using it on mustangs but I haven't heard of anyone doing it on a taurus and honestly I wouldn't trust it anyway.

some of the logic is there, but neither HPTuners or SCT will invest in the time to activate or connect the dots to utilize it on a "Dead" platform. With so many performance vehicles coming out running 9s, hard for us to convince them to dedicate much if any time to a car that 95% of the time runs 12s.

Been going around and around with Eric at HPT for the last 2 months trying to get more stuff added for the Mossy Oak PCM for boost control and he just isn't interested. Even with the SCT issues continuing to rise and us pushing the RTD like hot cakes, he's content letting it ride as is.

 

[stripSHO]

some tuners just leave you on pump gas stoichiometry and let the pcm trim you for ethanol

Lol seriously?! How f'ing lazy can someone be?!

 

[FiveLeeter918]

Lol seriously?! How f'ing lazy can someone be?!

I've seent it in this group...

 

[yaycandy]

Lol seriously?! How f'ing lazy can someone be?!

Help us ObiStrip, your our only hope

 

[stripSHO]

some of the logic is there, but neither HPTuners or SCT will invest in the time to activate or connect the dots to utilize it on a "Dead" platform. With so many performance vehicles coming out running 9s, hard for us to convince them to dedicate much if any time to a car that 95% of the time runs 12s.

Been going around and around with Eric at HPT for the last 2 months trying to get more stuff added for the Mossy Oak PCM for boost control and he just isn't interested. Even with the SCT issues continuing to rise and us pushing the RTD like hot cakes, he's content letting it ride as is.

Yeah HPTuners gives you just enough parameters to peak your interest but not nearly enough to do anything with. BTW I recently updated VCM editor for the first time in forever and it finally had the last missing parameter that was preventing me from raising my shift points. I assume you guys had something to do with it, so thank you.

 

[stripSHO]

Help us ObiStrip, your our only hope

It's literally just a matter of changing a single value from 14.08 to 12.99... and it just might be the difference between life and death for your engine if you lose a wideband or the system goes open loop for some reason.

 

[SilvererSHO]

Has anyone checked the accuracy on the Fuel-It bluetooth sensor? Are they or the GM one affected by moisture in the ethanol mix which in Minnesoder varies quiet a bit throughout the year because of the drastic season changes. I'd like to try E70 eventually down the road.

BTW, do any states allow cars to be emissions exempt if they run E85?

 

[DadMobile]

Fuel it only makes the Bluetooth adapter. The sensor itself is a GM sensor. I do believe moisture throws it off and I have seen level climb towards the end of the tank when the weather fluctuate’s in the cold. Ermmm Texas cold. Minnesota is just a little a colder I hear?

 

[Ta2dResqr]

From my reading, I see on the Raptor and Mustang forums talk of HPTuners recently (Juneish?) being able to unlock Flex Fuel logic which is already in the computer but disabled from the factory. Are we not that lucky? I am also reading that an E85 specific tune nets more power then a Flex Fuel map on E85. More interested in the versatility than the power.