emissons fail and other crap

[UndrdaSHO]

What's up fellas atx now will not pass emissions. I have two sets of cats, one bored out and one stock. With the bore it almost passes with the stock it doesn't come close. Dumb question but is there a way to clean the stock out? Motor new in car with 90,000 on it, PRETTY MUCH PERFECT But I do have issues with the idle running a little bouncy from 700 to 900 rpm in drive while on the brake. (Happens about 40% of the time)Sometimes I put it in park when this happens and give it a little gas it goes up to 1500 or so and seems to stick, stay open or however you want to say it lol. However, this happened with the last motor as well, the cause is somewhere else. So related issues? Or not, and `WTF can I do to improve emissions beside the obvious reasons. Tire pressure even, air filter and oil all been taken care of. Also rubydist- do you have any black fenders lying around? Thanks guys:stuck:

 

[Dirk37]

Any codes? When were the O2 sensors last replaced?

Also do you have the sheets which showed why you failed? That can help diagnose the cause

 

[UndrdaSHO]

Well I know the last o2 reading which caused the fail was ....I'm not kidding......99.xxxx amount. Before with the other motor it failed by 0.2xxx amount. I am unfortunately stuck in the dark ages with some ganky manual type code reader which requires two people with extreme patience and such and the only auto shop that will run a obd-1 without charging me a ridiculous amount will only run them Saturday morning. The last codes I pulled were a power to tranny related code and a low voltage on the alternator again, before the new motor. So Ill find out for sure then. Was hoping for some direction before that however I'm extremely impatient lol

 

[SHOdded]

Could be a bad Idle Air Controller (IAC), or throttle position sensor (TPS). But yeah, codes first, and as I am sure MANY people will point out, only need a paperclip for the test port & ability to count flashes of the CHECK ENGINE light

 

[sperold]

It is really helpful to know the categories, the allowable limits, and the score your car obtained.
I have had many failures in the past, and I have obtained a pass a few times by pulling the spout. My problems were high hydrocarbons in almost all my cases, and yes, I had few cases where my score was absolutely over the top in all categories. It seems like when 1 thing was wrong, everything goes wrong.
In my case, all the problems were solved when I installed new catalytic converters, one set from Shosource and one set from Eastern Catalatic Converters.
The reason your score was higher with the converters that were intact is possibly because those converters are "poisoned" and your no converter situation is actually an improvement.

 

[rubydist]

sorry, no black fenders in my collection...

as pointed out above, the best way to pull codes is just a paperclip and count. we need to know what (if any) they are. we also need to know the 3 readings achieved compared to the limits.

pulling the spout connector will drop the nox and hc almost in half, in my experience. sometimes that is enough to make it pass, other times it is not - depends on how far out it is. my experience is that these engines will almost, but not quite, pass with no cats even with spout pulled.

the bounce to the idle is almost certainly a sticky iac - you can get a new one, but I had one of those stick right out of the box. I suggest finding one at the jy and trying that, since there are ones from other cars that can be used - just make sure the connector orientation will work for you.

 

[UndrdaSHO]

Wow I did not know the paperclip thing. I used one before all high tech and mine has you perform all these steps while the car is not running, then again when it is, to get the codes. So is the car running with the paperclip in? Or no? Don't want to sound naive but this is all news to me lol! Tues and wed are my longest days at work, 12-14 hours but I will do this paperclip thing when I get home tomorrow/today . I have new tps in box, will check IAC.... Also you guys think I should take off the stock cats ?I felt the same way about that from the beginning have a good day guys and Thanks for all the info

 

[SHOdded]

http://web.archive.org/web/20090917070939/http://www.shophoenixproject.com/eec/eec.htm

The actual Shophoenixproject site is down, so I have provided the archive link. For 2 digit codes, go here:

http://web.archive.org/web/20090917070939/http://www.shophoenixproject.com/eec/code2.htm

For 3 digit codes, go here:

http://web.archive.org/web/20090917070939/http://www.shophoenixproject.com/eec/code3.htm

 

[rubydist]

when you get time, let us know the codes and also the emission test readings. that will help us know if you should replace the cats.

 

[mrgrim333]

So one thing that stuck out to me is the idle bouncing. Both shos I've owned had a bouncy idle, mostly when could, never could figure it out until I fail emissions hard, and I did my 60k plus some extra measures. Three things I can suggest. Fresh oil change, premium gas with an octain booster (seafoam in gas tank), and lastly... Vacuum lines. Ever since I got those sweet ass lines from shosource, I've had no idle volley, and my emissions were almost perfect. Just my input, the more the merrier right?

 

[UndrdaSHO]

Hey guys I work all the f-ing time..... Here's a new scoop and a weird one......put the o!d cats back on I never did get around to the codes yet, just started the sucker up and bam! Check engine light flashing codes at me no paperclip in it. Seems to be smoking from somewhere in the engine compartment code flashes 6-1-3. I think I'm smeeling burning plasticsbut ccan't locate the source of the smoke. Any input?

 

[rubydist]

just remember that working all the time is way better than never working, cause you can at least pay the grocery bills...

somewhere a wire got crimped/smashed and shorted - you need to find that before you have a fire in the engine compartment. My red 94 had an engine fire and I can tell you that you never want to see that...

 

[UndrdaSHO]

Found source of smoke, it was the oil covered nylon heat shield, not back in place and already frayed so naturally lol. However, just got back from new emissions. Here are the numbers:


Hc GPM 6.4934
Co GPM 139.8016
Co2 GPM 243.2011
NOx GPM 0.9801

Obviously its the hc and co2 \ co previously the numbers were at 3.7 and 99.9 respectfully. The cats on before had one empty chamber one full so I switched back to the bored out cats. What's my next step? The fuel mix is too rich what can I do for that? Also Richard gave me a number for Tracy (?) Its an old work number so looking for his email or whatnot, he might have a black fender lying around which would be preferred to a red or white one lol

 

[UndrdaSHO]

I do have a tps brand new in box......I suppose I'll give it a go...... But would a bad one cause these readings?

 

[rubydist]

in my experience, I have never seen one of these engines pass emissions with bad cats or no cats. they are close but no pass even with spout pulled.

in my experience, I have never seen a rich condition from a bad tps - all the ones I have seen have told the pcm that the throttle was closed, so it put in too little fuel. while it is possible that the tps could result in a rich condition, it is very unlikely, imho.

 

[UndrdaSHO]

Where's my next step? Can't find/afford a decent cat setup but I barely failed before, a 9.9 o2 reading.... Thinking the new motor, only code is 613 which could easily be a 361 maybe lol which is a o2sensor code but those are both new . so what next?

 

[sperold]

What are the allowable numbers (passing numbers) of your emission test. And what test are you performing, as each jurisdiction does it different. In my area it used to be a dyno test, but now it is stationary test.
You can get a new catalytic converter set up for a little over $250.00, which is a pretty good deal. I believe that is a sure cure for passing the emission test. You can spend more that that chasing other possible reasons, and still have to buy the cats.
Also investigate if there is a money limit on the repair. In my area, if the repair is estimated to cost more than $400.00 (like cats plus installation), you get a conditional pass, but you do not have to do the repair.

 

[rubydist]

its a dyno test here in CO, about a minute of driving between 20-50 mph with a "fast pass" option in 20 seconds if the car is obviously clean.

here you have to spend the money ($4-500, iirc) and still fail in order to get the exemption.

 

[sperold]

That is a bad deal in your state.
With the dyno test, my cars had to be just right to get a pass.... nice & hot, in from a good drive, etc.. With the new stationary test, the car passes with ease, with no prior preparation.
It always made me mad when my old 89 with over 200K miles and no recent maintenance, original cats, and lots of things not working well, would get a pass while my 95 with new everything including cats would struggle (on the old test).

 

[UndrdaSHO]

Ok my epic emission saga continues.

New tps fixed bouncy idle. I replace cats, vacuum lines that run down to t bar drivers side all the way to canister.

New cats dropped emissions, new vacuum lines raised them up again.
Codes are lean bank 1 bank 2 oxy sensors - and two others which according to rubydist are disregard codes.

Hc is 4.4 and co is 77.8


Rubydist gave me some advice and I think he is on to something but he's at work I think and I didn't want to text him here's my question:

Would a bad O ring on an injector/ injectors show something when I pull the spark plugs? Would it make them look like they are running rich/lean and is there a way to identify which cylinder has the bad oring ? Is there a way to test an oxygen sensor to see if it's bad?(I already know but asking anyways lol)

I'm down to either a vac leak causing the problem or bad sensors but those are new enough to know they should be working properly. All visible vac lines are now new and intact . Any other suggestions or where to go? Thanks guys!