Rough Idle and surges. MKS, AWD, Turbo

[monkeyboyx]

Having an issue with a 2012 MKS, AWD, 3.5 Turbo. Figured this be a good place to start. Rough Idle and surges when holding the brake lightly. Seems to get worse when the weather changes and becomes wet and or humid. Been looking all over the place for possible vacuum leaks. Cleaned a couple of the sensors just in case, still no go. This is what I was able to pull with a VCM scanner. I already replaced the oxygen sensors like an idiot.
Any ideas would be appreciated. Next step I was going to spray some carburetor cleaner and see if the idle changes.

Low Manifold Vacuum on TMAP systems only. (Not sure where to look)
High Fuel Pressure (Interesting but again, not sure)
Air intake restriction (Clean airbox, new filter, air sensor clean, nothing in the air intake)

===PCM DTC P2196:00-28===

Code: P2196 - O2 Sensor Signal Stuck Rich - Bank 1, Sensor 1


Status:

- Previously Set DTC - Not Present at Time of Request

- Malfunction Indicator Lamp is Off for this DTC


Module: Powertrain Control Module

===END PCM===

===PCM DTC P2198:00-28===

Code: P2198 - O2 Sensor Signal Stuck Rich - Bank 2, Sensor 1

Status:

- Previously Set DTC - Not Present at Time of Request

- Malfunction Indicator Lamp is Off for this DTC

Module: Powertrain Control Module

===END PCM===


===OBDII DTC P2196-C===

Code: P2196 - HO2S11 not switching correctly. Sensor indicates rich.

Status:

- Confirmed - malfunction is confirmed

Module: On Board Diagnostic II

Diagnostic Trouble Code details


HO2S11 not switching correctly. Sensor indicates rich.

Low Manifold Vacuum on TMAP systems only.

High Fuel Pressure


This DTC may be caused by :

Air intake restriction

===END OBDII===


Thanks again.

Update: Link to to a video of the rough idle. (7-13-2016)

 

[SHOdded]

How many miles on your MKS? Is it tuned or stock? Have you replaced spark plugs recently? Checked all hoses and clamps to make sure they are securely connected? Have you checked the intake piping for pooling oil? Checked the intercooler for accumulated oil/fuel/water/etc mix? Have you tried cleaning the 2 MAP sensors (with MAF cleaner or electrical parts cleaner)? Is the rear bank valve cover the updated composite (internal PCV baffle) design? What octane fuel are you running, and is it from a highturnover and/or top tier station? Last oil change (what oil/filter)?

Bank 2 Sensor 1 O2 sensor is a common one to fail, did you replace ALL the sensors or just that one?

 

[SilverSH0]

I'm not super familiar with the electronics in these cars and I'm sure someone knowledgeable will chime in. Have you looked at your MAP sensor?

That's where I would start. If it was bad I could see it causing it to run rich and throw those codes.

 

[monkeyboyx]

Wow. Thats allot of info. I'll do my best to check the rest of what you listed.
About 43,000, stock, did not replaced plugs-had the car for about 20K miles, cleaned both MAP sensors with approved sprays, replaced all oxygen sensors about 5K back.

 

[13blacksho]

Wow. Thats allot of info. I'll do my best to check the rest of what you listed.
About 43,000, stock, did not replaced plugs-had the car for about 20K miles, cleaned both MAP sensors with approved sprays, replaced all oxygen sensors about 5K back.

Plugs would be a great place to start!
Under $40 and it takes less than a half hour.

 

[krewat]

High fuel pressure, O2 sensors stuck rich... Hmm... (rubs chin thoughtfully)...

If it was an older car, I'd say check the vacuum hose going to the fuel pressure regulator - but I don't think these engines use such an antique way of modulating fuel pressure - or do they?

 

[monkeyboyx]

Well I replaced the PVC valve and the plastic pipe connecting it to the manifold just in case. Hoped it be that easy. Around $25 so not too bad I guess. Still no cigar.
Need to keep hunting.

 

[SHOdded]

Spark plugs are not that difficult. That's what needs to be checked/replaced next. If there's discoloration or fuel smell or oily ...
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,1980.0.html
Intercooler check is also a must.
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,3056.0.html

 

[rubydist]

rough idle and/or idle surging when holding the brake is often a vacuum leak in the brake booster, so be sure to check that out as well.

 

[monkeyboyx]

Well I was able to watch the live data on my FORscan droid app. And what I found is the check engine, P2196, P2198, irregular idle comes back after the car warms up and goes into CLOSED loop. When its cold and getting to temperature everything fine. Even if you take a short trip nothing happens everything runs fine. But I did find (Short Term O2) goes all over the place -7, 15, 28.91....what is going on here. Is this seriously running that rich....is any of this normal. Fixed the thumbnail links. Mhh might have fixed the issue, will update in a day or two.

 

[SHOdded]

Do these codes recur after being reset? You need to check everything for vacuum and/or air leaks. Loose connections, cracked hoses, the works. That's what the two codes are telling you, nothing much else. Could be an issue with the EVAP system also, even though no codes set yet.

Have you pulled the spark plugs for inspection? Did you clean the MAP sensors? Do the trims fluctuate in closed loop even at idle?

What brand are the replacement O2 sensors btw? Haven't heard of any issues, but there's always a first time.

EDIT: 43K seems too early for carbon buildup on the backs on the intake valves, if you can inspect them, we can at least eliminate this as a possibility.

 

[rubydist]

with most vehicles, the short term o2 bounces up and down all the time - the system is typically set up to have the a/f ratio wander back and forth across stoich all the time during closed loop.

however, your codes tell us that the first sensor on both banks is staying rich, and that matches what you are telling us about the engine running rich. vacuum / air leaks will result in lean, not rich condition, so I don't see that being the problem. you could have a fuel pump / pressure management issue or injector issues. that is where I would be looking.

 

[monkeyboyx]

Does anybody see anything questionable in these tables. I don't want to throw anymore parts at this for no reason at this point. Wild goose chase but possibly the (FRP) Fuel Rail Pressure sensor??? Maybe...maybe. I googled P2196 and P2198 and many fords seem to have this issue in common but nobody has a clean answer. Anyway just bouncing ideas thats all. Uploaded a troubleshooting guide also.

 

[SHOdded]

Are these values taken at idle? Here are some reference values

So far, EVAPCP seems really out of whack. It should be 0% per the manual, but showing as 72.12% on your readout.

 

[monkeyboyx]

Well I think after a few seconds it purges and goes to zero. The screenshots are from a short drive and idle at a stop. I used the VCM on another test and it found a bunch of misfires at idle when the event happens. Replaced all the spark plugs and still the same result. Going to the mechanic this week, will see what happens. Fuel pressure sensor....injectors? Not sure. Might have to live with it. I'll post a screenshot or two of the miss fire after I get home later.

Misfire test 1, test 2. Two different events.



Injectors status.


o2 Before Event


o2 After Event

 

[SHOdded]

Does it note the fuel trims at the time of the misfires? That'd be good to know, not necessary tho. Random misfires, or misfires on a particular cylinder?

An injector issue usually results in raw fuel being dumped into the cats, and you get the characteristic plume of exhaust smoke and fuel smell.

 

[monkeyboyx]

Does it note the fuel trims at the time of the misfires? That'd be good to know, not necessary tho. Random misfires, or misfires on a particular cylinder?

An injector issue usually results in raw fuel being dumped into the cats, and you get the characteristic plume of exhaust smoke and fuel smell.

Well I never noticed a plum of smoke but fuel smell 110%. Especially when you have the bad idle and park in the garage.

 

[SHOdded]

Looks like Cylinder 3 is the weakest re: misfire counts. In the 2013+ SHOs at least, that's where a valve cover leak tends to occur. How long was the engine idling before the screenshots were taken?

Normally, I'd go spark plug, coil, and injector in that order for the misfire. But the O2 graphs (sensor 2) seem to indicate BOTH banks are affected, and both sensor 1s are showing FAULT. So we are still looking at possible wiring harness issues for the O2s, and/or a leaky HPFP/faulty regulator. A much rarer condition would be multiple injector fault, it does happen ...

 

[SHOdded]

TSB for an Escape/Mariner that points to the EVAP canister and/or purge valve
http://www.revbase.com/BBBMotor/TSb/DownloadPdf?id=173431

The EVAP purge valve is located in the valley as shown. May just need a connector cleaning/greasing.


Item Part Number Description
1 14A464 Evaporative Emission (EVAP) canister purge valve electrical connector
2 9G271 EVAP canister purge valve
3 — EVAP canister purge valve-to-vapor tube quick connect coupling (part of 9G271)
4 — EVAP canister purge valve-to-intake manifold quick connect coupling (part of 9G271)
5 9J279 Vapor tube
6 — Intake manifold boss (part of 9424)
7 9424 Intake manifold

 

[monkeyboyx]

TSB for an Escape/Mariner that points to the EVAP canister and/or purge valve
http://www.revbase.com/BBBMotor/TSb/DownloadPdf?id=173431

The EVAP purge valve is located in the valley as shown. May just need a connector cleaning/greasing.

View attachment 2853
Item Part Number Description
1 14A464 Evaporative Emission (EVAP) canister purge valve electrical connector
2 9G271 EVAP canister purge valve
3 — EVAP canister purge valve-to-vapor tube quick connect coupling (part of 9G271)
4 — EVAP canister purge valve-to-intake manifold quick connect coupling (part of 9G271)
5 9J279 Vapor tube
6 — Intake manifold boss (part of 9424)
7 9424 Intake manifold

I replaced the valve last year. Bench tested it and it was dead. I don't think it would close at all.
You can use a 9 volt batter or power probe tool. Which I recommend everybody to get.