won't start - what else to check

[Todds93SHO]

'93 ATX started running like crap the end of last week. Previously the CE light would come on occasionally, I was preparing to change the 02 sensors.
Finally on Friday it really ran like garbage, barely got me to work and back. Saturday morning came and it wouldn't start. Finally got a chance to pull the codes sunday night. It's my first time pulling the codes so bare with me please.

Since it wouldn't start, just turn over like crazy but not even sputter, I thought KOEO was the only test I could run.

KOEO
111 - System Pass I believe
172 - HEGO sensor Lean (RH)
173 - HEGO sensor Rich (RH)
647 - Absolutely no idea????

I searched for what this 647 could be but had no luck.
I think the CPS is OK, the tack moves when cranking over, up around 5-700RPM

Please help. I have a ride to work but it's not my SHO, I want my baby back.

Thanks,
Todd

<small>[ August 13, 2002, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: Todds93SHO ]</small>

 

[sdpatt]

172 (R,M) Oxygen sensor not switching - system is or was lean - Single, Right or Rear HO2S
173 (R,M) Oxygen sensor not switching - system is or was rich - Single, Right or Rear HO2S
647 (M) Transmission 3rd gear failure

The first two codes refer to the rear bank O2 sensor and it has most likely failed since the front bank O2 sensor didn't suffer the same problems. But one failed O2 sensor won't keep the engine from starting since they are not used until the engine warms up and enters the closed loop control mode.

You didn't mention if the 111 was the hard fault response and the other codes were the memory codes, but was that the case?

Try this site for better descriptions of the codes and testing -> http://www.dalidesign.com/hbook/3digit.html

What exactly do "running like crap" and "ran like garbage" really translate to in more descriptive terms? Was the engine misfiring? Low on power? Not able to take throttle? Not able to pull high revs? Need more input.

You might check out the fuel pump to see if it is running and that the fuel filter isn't clogged. The pump should run for about 1.5 seconds when you turn the key to ON. Do you hear it whining?

 

[Todds93SHO]

Sorry about the vague "ran like garbage" description. I'll try to elaborate some more on that.

I believe the 111 was the hard fault response, as I believe it was the first code after the fan and all the sensors were switching on. Then after a few seconds pause the 172, 173 and 647 flashed. Then again it was my first time reading them and I did it twice to make sure.

Before it finally died, it was extremely low on power. I'm pretty sure it was only hitting on half the cylinders because at idle you could see the engine shaking in every which direction. The error for the tranny may be from the ride home on the highway. It was so low on power it had to keep downshifting to get up the hills. I limped it home though, only 15 miles all highway.
There was no throttle response at all but that's hard to tell when it's not really running on all cylinders.

I thought I could hear the Fuel pump when I turned the key, but I'll be checking that again monday night. I bought a fuel filter and will be changing that so I'll check the flow when I pull the old one off.

I forgot to mention that the rough running all started thursday night on the way home from work, shortly after I bought gas from an unusual place. (I couldn't help it though, I was running out and it was the only place around.) I thought maybe there was water in the gas so I threw in a bottle of water remover, let it sit for a while, and since then it won't even start.

My cars got 130k and I'm almost through the 120k service with the top end left. I finally got the money to fix it and should have it done by the end of the month.

Thanks

 

[sdpatt]

Sounds like the gas is suspect. Pull at least one of the front bank plugs and take a good look at them. What do you see? Are they wet with fuel? Are there any water droplets?

You can purge the fuel from the fuel rails and lines to the engine by hooking up a hose to the Schrader valve on the fuel rails and routing it to a catch container like an old oil bottle. Turn the key ON and the pump will run for about 1.5 seconds. Push a paper clip through the wall of the tube to push the pintle of the valve and release the pressure in the fuel lines. Do this several times. It would be real interesting to see the consistency of the liquid in the cantainer. Maybe you can find a glass bottle to put the hose into.

Scott

 

[Todds93SHO]

I wish I had checked this post before I went to work on the SHO tonight.

I just changed the fuel filter, and checked to see that the fuel pump was working. Both seemed alright. With the old filter removed I goosed the pump by turning the ignition for a second and it flowed fine so the pump should be alright. I also blew into the old filter and it didn't seem clogged at all.

I didn't really take a good look at the fuel I had in a catch pan from where I changed the filter. I wish I had done that, or saved a sample.

I also pulled the front bank of plugs out yesterday to see what they looked like and make sure I didn't have oil in the wells. The plugs had black carbon deposits on them but nothing too bad so I cleaned them. Also checked the gap and it was too large, gapped them back to .044 and put them back in. I ordered a set of wires and plugs from FPN and they shipped today.

I was wondering if there is a good way to check for spark? I know with the lawnmower you can just clip the plug to the top of the head and look for a spark, didn't know if this was allowable on the SHO?

Is there a way to check the DIS?

Still turns over but no firing at all.

Thanks for all the help Scott, hopefully I can figure this one out.
Todd

 

[Todds93SHO]

Ok so I'm pretty sure now that Scott has enlightened me as to what the 647 code is for I don't think that has to do with the engine not starting.

Today I checked the fuel pressure at the manifold and it seems fine, there is pressure in the fuel rail.
I checked for spark at the #1 cylinder and it appears to be there.

Gave it a shot of starting fluid and the engine started to run, so I'm thinking that the injectors aren't doing their job.

What controls the fuel injectors and gives them the signal to operate? Can I check this?

Thanks in advance for any help.
Todd

 

[Todds93SHO]

Today I'll check the timing, or at least make sure the marks are lining up.
I don't know what the **** else there is. I'd hate to take it to a mechanic to have them do all the shit i did over again and have to pay for it.

Please throw me some suggestions.

Thanks