To weld or not to weld? Here is the anwser......

[SHO Shop]

The following pictures are from a '97 V8 SHO we had in our shop recently. This car already had the cams welded as you can see, reinforcing our decision the pinning process on the camshafts vs. welding.

These are just for your reference, I'm not starting a flame war nor participating in one on the benefits towards camshaft pinning and welding camshafts in the car. The car will probably be receiving a new engine as a result of the welding process, since most of the valves were bent from coming in contact with the pistons.

We saw this coming on welded camshafts quite some time ago. Usually, the camshafts become so impregnated with oil by the time the welding process is decided upon, a perfect weld will never be made. That is unless the surface is ground down so that a clean metal-to-metal contact can be made, and then what do you get? The chance of metal shavings introduced into the engine, causing even more damage. This will more than likely affect V8 SHOs that have had the welding performed while the cams are still installed. A perfect example of getting what you pay for.

 

[fuller911]

Personally, that looks like a pretty crappy weld job. But I am no automotive or welding expert. If SHO SHOP had a better reputation and it didn't cost like 2K to get the cams pinned and us not having the SHO for several weeks. I would've gotten them pinned. I'm not trying to be mean or anything, I'm just looking at it as an average consumer who needs his car everyday.

 

[SHO Shop]

Where are you getting several weeks from? We had three V8 SHOs leave our facility last week all with camshaft pinning and other modifications. All 3 cars were at our shop for less than a week.

 

[Ian Macoomb]

Did a professional do those welds? If the pics came from a more neutral source I'd be willing to believe what you say. Can we get some input from the owner?

I got mine welded by FPS so I'm not worried.

 

[fuller911]

Me being here in Missouri. I can't make a long trip to Cali to get them pinned. Which means that I would have to send the cams to you and the SHO SHOP seems to take its time when it comes to shipping.

 

[XLSuruaT]

Yikes, that's nasty. I'm glad I dont own a v8, but at the same time I wish I did since my duratec sucks. Good luck fellaz.

 

[ZexySho]

As a certified welding inspector with 20+ years of experience I can say without reservation that the welds shown in your photo failed primarily due to poor quality, specifically the following:

1. Inadequate weld size
2. Lack of fusion and *********** (heat input too low)

To weld the cams properly the the welder must balance putting in enough heat to get good fusion but not so much as to warp the shaft. This is not magic as welders do it every day on similar applications. Had I inspected these welds beforehand I would have rejected them for this use. This process is not a big problem for a good welder with experience and understanding of the situation. Things the person who did this work did not possess. Your comments regarding not being able to clean the parts enough to make a good weld and not being able to keep stray spatter out of the engine are totally false as I have seen it done with success. The TIG process in particular is virtually spatter free.

Wendell Adkins
AWS Certified Welding Inspector

 

[SHOZ123]

Who is the one responsible for those welds? This is what you should be letting people know SHOShop.

Kind of reminds me of someone running around saying the ski is falling.....

<small>[ December 02, 2002, 10:17 PM: Message edited by: SHOZ123 ]</small>

 

[Osiris]

There seems to be advantages and DISadvantages for both here.

I think the only true solution would be a camshaft that is one whole piece instead of a pressed on sprocket. Until that happens, perhaps either solution is good enough.

Sorry, Tom, it'll cost me a grand or so at least to remove my cams and ship to you, then your fee and cost for reinstallation. Sounds like all in all, pinning the cams your way is about what a new engine will cost anyway.

Why not get a good weld job done for a fraction of the price when FPS has hundreds of satisfied customers with no issues?

I can understand your willingness to help amd I applaud you for it, but I don't think this is going to change matters.

My SHO is never going to be mistreated enough to overstress the cams in my mind. Afterall, my wife will be driving it from now on and she'll never take the car past 5,000 rpms let alone race the thing. Next year, I'll be paying FPS a vist. Any other Texans want to caravan down?

 

[OzzmanNT]

Next on Shady tree SHO mechanic we will show you how to weld your own cams. Just remember once you get to the cams just turn the welder on to any setting you like and place as many welds are you like. If a welder is not available you are welcome to use a soldering iron also.

Remember eating donuts over your open engine is not recommended.



<small>[ December 02, 2002, 10:37 PM: Message edited by: OzzmanNT ]</small>

 

[ArkanSHO]

I don't think this welder used a soldering iron as I could get better *********** with a 35 watt PC board unit. Think it must have been that guy that did his with a burning cigarette and that Radio Shack match solder stuff.
I seriously think you could have done better giving that welder a couple tubes of JB Weld.

<small>[ December 02, 2002, 10:43 PM: Message edited by: ArkanSHO ]</small>

 

[SHODWN]

The welder must be shot. if you look closly you can see under the bottom weld. This only make the point to have a GOOD welder fix your cams and not someone that can flip the switch.

Thats why V8SHO.com has a list of qualified vendoes just to prevent this type of back yard BBQ. Thanks Tom for showing this to all!

Please see V8SHO.com before even thinking about welding your cams.

 

[ArkanSHO]

Interesting, eh?

 

[Evil Sneak]

bs that weld job is a joke.

 

[SHO Shop]

Carter,

I'm going to assume you know nothing about welding and reply to your cheap attempt at Photoshop on your pictures. I'm also going to take it a step further decyphering your spelling:

"Chiped teeth on sproket, looks like a hokey test"
That would be paint we mark the cam sprockets in relation to the timing chains.

"Brown from oil but cam is clean"
I'm still trying to figure this one out. Want to enlighten me a little?

"Hmm top weld is broken but bottom weld is in tact"
This is the one that baffles me. How could a top weld break and the bottom one stay fixed in place? Did the weld break off and just move up the cam sprocket and reseat itself? Maybe the weld got tired from being in one spot all the time and was just moving around for kicks. If you looked at the pictures a little more closely, you would notice picture #2 clearly shows the weld in question. The sprocket is clearly spinning on the camshaft. eek!

"Looks like it started out to be a PIN job, but they ran out of 1000.00 drill bits and 5 cent roll pins. so this was a test peice for Tom to try welding on."
Now this is the comment that ****** me off. You're claiming I'm a liar. Did I ever claim I welded the cams myself? I've been on this forum for months (through the constant flaming I've recieved) supporting the Roll-Pin solution - I'm entirely against welding. Why would I even attempt such a thing in the first place? Also, Where do you get that drill bits are $1000 each? How do you determine roll pins are 5 cents apiece?

These cams in question cams to us from someone who tried to get the cams welded because it was cheaper. Peroid. When we opened up the cam covers I saw exactly what you are seeing in the photos, I was hoping to shed a lttle light on the process, not start a flame war as stated in my first post.

I can just as easily not post on the forums, not offer V8 tech advice, and **** why even bother offering V8 SHO parts? - I'm just going to get people ****** off in the forums it seems, the market is simply not worth it as compared to the V6 SHOs and even the Contour SVTs. I even get flack here at SHO Shop for participating on the forums, I'm constantly told I'm wasting my time. Comments like these just reinforce that claim. I really wonder if I am sometimes.

But I've owned a V8 SHO, and I liked driving it. I'm sharing my personal experiences from the 3 years I did have my '96 SHO so people will not make the same mistakes I did when building it up. Remember, I'm in here on my own time, no one is paying me for this. If you are clearly that disappointed with me personally or with SHO Shop, simply buy somewhere else. Do not make false claims or childish personal attacks. Grow up.

The message I'm trying to send out is this: Be careful. This is a worst-case scenerio of cam welding, there are other problems that can arise in which I've explained in numerous posts. If you choose to go through with welding, just be sure your technician knows what he is doing and clearly experienced. I'm not here to say one process is right and the other is wrong. People on this forum are as unique (and some a little even more than unique) as their SHOs. Everyone in this forum clearly knows my opinion on welding, and I will keep it at just that - an opinion.

<small>[ December 03, 2002, 12:55 AM: Message edited by: SHO Shop ]</small>

 

[Groo]

Tom, don't let it get to you. I really appreciate what you're doing for the SHO community, and my opinion of SHO SHOP has increased 10 fold just by seeing you post as often as you do on these forums. Now all you need to work on is shippings things out faster to some people boink .

 

[shojuan]

ZexySho:
Your comments regarding not being able to clean the parts enough to make a good weld and not being able to keep stray spatter out of the engine are totally false as I have seen it done with success. The TIG process in particular is virtually spatter free.

Wendell Adkins
AWS Certified Welding Inspector

He probably means shavings from grinding the spots to be welded clean. I could see it being tricky if not impossible to keep those from flying everywhere if grinding with the cams in place. Bits of hardened metal...oooh, that's scary.

Rick

 

[shojuan]

Drilling holes for pins with the cams in the car would have the same problems.

Rick

 

[ArkanSHO]

Carter,
I'm going to assume you know nothing about welding and reply to your cheap attempt at Photoshop on your pictures. I'm also going to take it a step further decyphering your spelling:

Tom, I was not the author of this, I did not take these pictures, I did not critique this photo, I did not do this weld, I did not make the accusations. I found this posted on another board and thought since the issue was brought up here I would pass it along.
Most of all I NEVER called anybody a liar!
Get off of it.
Another comment I would like to add, I have only been welding for 24 years, so you could be correct, I have no idea what a good weld looks like. That must be why I had my entire cams heated in an oven then TIG'ed then cooled in the oven and tested for run-out.
I cannot comment on your assumption concerning my dissapointment in you or the SHO Shop as I have no personal experience of the SHO Shop other then Vadim hooking me up with the guy who I bought the crate motor from when I asked if he could rebuild mine following a sprocket failure a year ago and the refund of my supercharger deposit.
FYI - The pin idea was not out yet so I welded all four new cams before installing my motor.
I have 20,000+ miles on this motor with several 1/4 mile runs, a half dozen autocross events and a supercharger running 8 pounds of boost without my welds breaking. I think that says enough for a proper welding for me.
Sorry you took offense to my previous post.

<small>[ December 03, 2002, 08:10 AM: Message edited by: ArkanSHO ]</small>

 

[SHOclub1]

I would like to try to cool things off a little.

Tom and Vadim at the SHO Shop have provided valuable services for the SHO Community, both V6 and V8 longer than any other shop. If anyone has a bone to pick with them, please try to keep it civil. NO shop I know of has been in business for long without making some enemies. I know Vadim and Tom, and they are honorable people that do good work.

About that cam. It was obviously not welded by anyone with experience at welding or specifically welding SHO Cams. It is a valuable lesson in not letting just anyone with a home welder, or even a pro welder attempt a repair.

About pinning. A test by Ford indicated that pins (not sure if they were roll pins or solid) lasted a bit longer than welds when doing destructive testing. Both solutions should last the reasonable lifetime of the motor though.

I respect the SHO SHop for coming up with a solution and sticking with it. If you don't agree with having cams pinned, then fine, but it is a valid solution. This is America, nobody, including the SHO Shop is forcing you to do anything.

We have reports of botched pinned cams, it takes quality equipment and skill to do this job. I am convinced that the SHO Shop has the qualifications to do this work.

I have not heard of a failed welded cam that was done by a reputable shop. It might happen, and if anyone has proof, let me know.

The SHO Club continues to promote V8 Cam sprocket solutions and shops that have experience and qualifications. THis includes, SHO Shop, FPS, Performance Plus, Protech, plus Ray's in Michgan. YOu can get addresses/phone etc on the V8 Chronicles pages on SHOClub.com

I urge anyone with a V8 SHO, that has not had the cams fixed, consider having it done. And if you have had a motor fail and new cams installed, remember, to the best of our knowledge, these NEW cams WILL also fail! You still need to get a better solution!

There may be some movement by Ford in the near future, we can hope at least that FoMoCo will do the right thing and help out some of their most loyal (but not much longer) enthusiasts. Till that day comes, the proven solutions are real and they work.

Please, those that are fanning the flames, don't keep doing this. We all love the SHO, and at this time, when we need to be together to try to get some help from Ford Motor Company, we don't need to be fighting over the small stuff.

THanks Tom and the SHO Shop for your post and for helping to keep those SHO's on the Road

Don Mallinson
SHO Club