This is my final analysis - am I right? (Long please read)

[DJ SHO]

I don't know if anyone else has had the problems I've been having, in terms of running bad at high rpm, then minutes later at lower rpm, then eventually a no-start situation. Thought the problem was my cat's because they were glowing. Well, gutted them, still won't start. So just for the **** of it I pulled one of the plugs today. Soaked like a **** with gas. So I cleaned them up and tried to start it. With the car floored it popped and sputtered for a second, like it was igniting the fuel left over in the cylinders. Kept turning it over and over, and kept getting the same kind of results, a little spitting and sputtering, but it never actually started. This happened a few days ago after reinstalling new plugs (after my original problem occurred). Got the new plugs in, wouldn't start. So I push started it. Ran rough as ****, no power. Got it up to 4k rpm and it broke loose, power came back. That tells me possibly the extra amount of fuel burns better with the increase in air. Also my red cats indicate (more than likely) a super rich running condition, even though the 02's never threw a code for it. Maybe it wasn't running long enough, dunno. I think if i push started it now it will run like it did the other day. My 02's are fairly new too (maybe 5-8k miles on them).

With these assumptions I've ruled out the other possiblities. CPS is fine, I've got spark. Plus I checked every coil output with a spare plug and wire, had good spark while cranking at each one. Checked the timing, everything lined up fine, timing belt was good, blah blah blah. Converters are now unrestricted, so that takes care of exhaust. While running rich though, it did happen to melt some of the insides of the converters. Noticed that when we banged the crap put of them. There were a few spots in both cats that had melted, causing some restriction. But anyhow, seeing how the plugs have been soaked bad on almost three tries now, it's probably obvious that it's getting too much fuel and can't ignite it worth a damn. And seeing how the plugs were so damn wet yesterday, it wasn't even close to firing.

So the question for you all is, does this definately sound like a bad regulator or multiple injectors leaking? I did notice tonight that there was fuel around the shrader valve, on top of it and around it. I pushed down on it last week to check to see if I had pressure, but I cleaned up any gas after that. If the regulator went bad all of a sudden, it could've caused these stage of events that happended that night, don't you think?

I'm going to get a pressure gauge tomorrow to check the fuel pressure. Do I check it when cranking, and what should it read when the pump is primed, and when starting? Also, I replaced the fuel filter last week hoping that would help (which it didn't rant ) and the fuel pump is a 190 lph that I put in back in January (and about 12k miles ago). Any of this make sense now? Please help. I need to get this bastard car running.

 

[svtman]

After reading this - to me you have an ignition problem. I know on the 5.0L Mustangs they had an ignition module what would tend to fail - it basically had two modes - startup and running mode. Mine failed on running mode, which meant that it would start up fine, but immeidatly die. Replacing the module cured the problem. I don't know about the SHO system, but I would guess that you wither have a bad plug wire, plug, crossed wires, or bad ingition (DIS). Did you try pulling off a wire while your car is running to see if it made a difference? Or a cylinder balance test? Just things to consider I guess. I could be off base too, I would bet it is an ignition problem and not injector or fuel related.

 

[projectSHO89]

How to test fuel pressure


My suspicion would be leaking injectors or injector O-rings. The pressure test and leakdown test will help isolate the problem or will clear these items from suspicion.

Steve

 

[jelloslug]

Hey DJ, one other think that I forgot: Check the rest of you exaust system; there may be parts of that bad cat stuck in the resonator or further down.

 

[DJ SHO]

jelloslug:
Hey DJ, one other think that I forgot: Check the rest of you exaust system; there may be parts of that bad cat stuck in the resonator or further down.

But it wouldn't start before when I had the whole exhaust disconnected. It probably wouldn't have run well without exhaust backpressure, but it at least should have started. We did that on this car once when the new clutch was in. Checked to make sure clutch worked before we continued hooking the y-pipe back up and stuff. Boy is it loud.

 

[DJ SHO]

projectSHO89:
How to test fuel pressure


My suspicion would be leaking injectors or injector O-rings. The pressure test and leakdown test will help isolate the problem or will clear these items from suspicion.

Steve

Steve, which pin in the EEC tester is the FP pin? Do I ground that or something?

 

[projectSHO89]

SHOTimes FAQ - EEC Test Connector

 

[masho95]

Just turn the key to on and listen for the fuel pump priming. If you hear it prime check the fuel pressure with a tester at the fuel rail. Definitely sounds like a fuel delivery problem to me. Fuel pressure after primed should be around 37-38 psi. During cranking I believe pressure should be slightly higher around 40 psi or so. If you floor the gas while starting it's supposed to cut the injectors out to eliminate a flooded type condition. If it's still not starting it sounds like the fuel pressure regulator isn't functioning properly. It's supposed to meter fuel pressure and return excess fuel to the tank. If you're getting that much fuel that it won't start I'd highly doubt that leaking injectors would be enough to not let it start, but it still could be a possibility. To check the fuel pump you don't need to ground the EEC FP connector, just turn the key to start. Check your fuel pressure and let us know what you find.

 

[DJ SHO]

Thanks for the input, went and got a gauge to check the pressure.

These are my readings. I don't know if these small changes in pressure are good enough to cause my problems, but you guess let me know. Here goes:

Static pressure test, pump on continuous - 42 psi

Pulled wire off of EEC connector - down to 36 psi, and stayed there for the three minutes.

During cranking it was between 40-42 psi.

These reading might be acceptable, I dunno. Perhaps even a few psi ok shrug ? If it is ok to have these readings, I'm all out of answers. It still won't start.

SHO Guru's help this poor SHO... cry

<small>[ July 15, 2003, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: DJ SHO ]</small>

 

[rangerj]

DJSHO'

OK, back to basics. Your fuel pressures indicate that you are getting fuel, as does the flooding.

So, one side of the equasion is OK. that is the fuel. Now start looking at the other side, that is the "spark" side.

You have an ignition problem. Look at the "Betty Davis" posts. The tests for the Distributorless Ignition System (DIS) are posted in there. The tests, including the wire colors, are posted in there, and elsewhere under my sig.

If you can't find them get back to us, and I'll post them again. You will need a digital Multi-Meter, and/or a "LED" test light to do the tests.
rangerj

 

[masho95]

rangerj:
So, one side of the equasion is OK. that is the fuel. Now start looking at the other side, that is the "spark" side.

Take a look back at the original post, he already indicated he has spark at every cylinder. I'd start leaning toward a fuel injector leak. Especially if your cats started glowing red, indicating a super rich fuel mode. Just out of curiosity did you pull the intake when replacing the spark plugs? And was it right after you changed them that this problem started happening??

 

[ShoBad236]

I'm probably way off track, i had a very similar problem and it turned out to be my ect sensor. Car wouldnt start, tons of gas, i guess the sensor was telling the computer the coolant was like 500 degrees, so it tried to compensate for it. I know this probably is useless help, but if you get desperate theirs a test procedure for the ect. Good luck!

 

[AutoSHO]

I agree with the previous post, check the ECT, just to see what the output is. Maybe it failed closed or open (very little resistance or infinite/very high) and is telling the computer the wrong thing.

 

[rangerj]

MACHSHO,

Yes, your right. I got carried away with the fuel pressure issue and forgot that he tested the "spark". Thanks. shrug

One fuel injector, maybe two, leaking, but all six? Have you checked the fuel return line to make sure the fuel is able to return to the tank. I have seen a few of these get plugged up.

How about the fuel regulator? shrug rangerj

 

[DJ SHO]

Thanks again everyone for the help so far. Gonna look into the ECT, and DIS tomorrow, just to make sure. Nothing wrong with double checking everything.

masho95:
Just out of curiosity did you pull the intake when replacing the spark plugs? And was it right after you changed them that this problem started happening??

I did pull the intake to do the plugs, but also did it to clean the intake out. Intake was de-carboned, and nice and spotless afterwards, 160k miles of piled on crap had to go! No my problem was there before I pulled the intake. I put everything back together and that's when I got it to run a bit, then noticed the glowing cats. They were probably glowing the first night this all happened, but never noticed.

Like I said, thanks again everyone for the suggestions, comments, etc. If anyone still has any input, don't hesitate to post it. Gonna get to testing some stuff tomorrow. I'm gonna replace the CPS tomorrow (got a wicked deal on one, I've got the day off tomorow, and have someone who's done one to help me out). So my time is all I'm putting into the CPS replacement pretty much. Can't hurt. I'll let you all know what happens tomorrow. Thanks.

 

[fred79]

I don't really know any thing but could some of your O2 sensors have failed from teh clogged cats. It could have done something strange and they are sending back a lean siganl and the computer pumps fuel. you could try just disconnecting them

 

[masho95]

Ok the problem was there before the intake was removed and the plugs changed then.. was anything else done before this. You said you were going to change the CPS sensor. Are you refering to the crankshaft position senson (CKP)? I doubt that is causing the problem. As far as the fuel being returned to the tank, if it's clogged then where is the fuel going?

 

[DJ SHO]

masho95:
Ok the problem was there before the intake was removed and the plugs changed then.. was anything else done before this. You said you were going to change the CPS sensor. Are you refering to the crankshaft position senson (CKP)? I doubt that is causing the problem. As far as the fuel being returned to the tank, if it's clogged then where is the fuel going?

Nothing was done before any of this happened. If the regulator is clogged, I don't know where the fuel is going.

Here's a thought. Just hit me. I hope I didn't fry something. In my first thread about this whole problem, I stated that when this all happened and I limped into a gas station, I popped the hood and noticed the Neg batt terminal was loose as ****. I found that out when I pulled in (stalled of course) and went to start it on like the third try. Everything shut off due to the bad conenction. So i popped the hood and there was the loose conenction. Is it possible something got fried, like the perhaps some part of the EEC? Like I've said, everything seems to be working fine with the computer. It runs the tests fine, speedo output, fuel flow output, idiot lights, fuel pump, yada yada yada, all that stuff works fine.

I'm going to doublecheck all grounds tomorrow and try swapping in that other DIS module I got, just for the heck of it again. I wouldn't think the DIS ground (crossover tube) woudl be loose or have a bad connection. I've never had anything apart until I had to start investigating this whole ordeal.

 

[DJ SHO]

fred79:
I don't really know any thing but could some of your O2 sensors have failed from teh clogged cats. It could have done something strange and they are sending back a lean siganl and the computer pumps fuel. you could try just disconnecting them

When I installed the newly gutted y-pipe the other day, as an idiot I forgot to hook up the 02's doh . Didn't make any difference.

I've even tried unplugging the MAF, and the IAC to see if anything helped to start it. No progress.

 

[projectSHO89]

Now that you have verifid that your fuel system is working properly..

Check your timing.

Unplug the SPOUT plug near the cam sensor.

Connect the timing light to #1 or #5 (I use #5 since it's easier. Start (or crank) engine and verify that base timing is 10 D BTDC.

If your timing jumped, it would also explain your symptoms.

Steve

<small>[ July 16, 2003, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: projectSHO89 ]</small>