The Saga Contiunues

[TanK203]

I haven't written much about my SHO, mostly because I am legally bound from going into too much specifics around what happened when I first acquired my SHO, but let me assure you that this has been a roller coaster ride.

Both turbos have been replaced, twice.
A/C Compressor replaced, also twice.
And a slew of less major, but equally annoying issues that have come up from literally day 1.

Well April 1st brought that to a whole new level. I had been experiencing a small coolant leak but I had been staying on top of it, replacing the coolant and closely monitoring temps (both cabin and engine, I knew when the cabin wouldn't heat up when idle that I was really low.) The engine NEVER overheated during this time. However while driving in the morning, only a few miles from my house, the instrument cluster dinged and told me that the engine was overheating. I immediately pulled over, suspecting i ran out of coolant, but when I opened the hood, it was a mess of brown and green liquid sprayed all over the left side of the engine bay. I was able to open the coolant reservoir, and saw it was full... of oil.

I limped it home and had it towed to the Ford dealership.

They told me they suspected the water pump, which based on the horror stories I have read about on here, I wasn't surprised, although because of the mess, I assumed it was a head gasket. They told me they had to run some tests and they were in contact with the warranty company (I bought a used Ford... of course I bought the extended warranty).

Yesterday they called me and told me the entire engine needs to be replaced.

I guess in the long term, this is a much better option. It will ensure that there was no underlying issue that may spring up again if they simply replaced the pump and flushed the fluids. But I am still shaking my head at the headaches this car has caused, even though I love it.

For those curious, the car has 99,910 miles on it when this failure occurred. Warranty covers to 125K, but needless to say I will be extending it when I get the car back .

I'll post updates as I get them, but fingers crossed the warranty company approves the work, they are able to find an engine and the SHO comes back home good as new.

 

[802SHO]

Damn

 

[yaycandy]

If it never overheated then it would just need headgaskets. I overheated mine a good bit when my first engine went and I had the head checks and they were still flat. Pushed all the oil to the coolant tank or out the exhaust. Always better for the engine when the head gasket goes to push the oil to the coolant tank. Keeps it from trashing the heads. Still could be something larger than a head gasket. I hope they fully cover it and you get a new engine.

 

[NoSlo]

Another engine destroyed by bad design. This is why I did my research and got a G2 SHO that's still going, and would not get a G3 or G4. Break a timing belt? Put on a new one. Maybe a nice 2008 Taurus or Montego Duratec with a $35 water pump, or 2013+ Fusion Hybrid and go 600 miles on a tank.

Wikipedia:

Water pump issues
Water pumps on transversely mounted 3.5L V6, 3.5L EcoBoost V6, and 3.7L V6 engines have a tendency to fail and potentially ruin the engine when they do. The water pumps on these engines are internally mounted and driven by the timing chain. As a result, when they fail, antifreeze is dumped directly into the crankcase; mixing with engine oil and potentially damaging the head gaskets and connecting rod bearings. Many of these water pump failures occur without warning and repairs often cost thousands of dollars as the engine needs to be disassembled or removed from the vehicle to access the water pump. In some cases, the engine will need to be replaced outright. A class action lawsuit was started against Ford as a result of this issue. [9] All longitudinally mounted versions of the 3.3, 3.5, 3.5 EcoBoost, and 3.7 V6 use an external water pump.

CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT - dismissed with prejudice Feb 2020 (Ford will spend millions on out-lawyering - see V8 SHO)

A judge has dismissed the Ford Duratec water pump lawsuit that was brought against Ford by owners of vehicles that are fitted with Ford Duratec engines that have a strange water pump design. The water pump in these vehicles is inside the engine, behind multiple components that are required to be removed to get to the pump. The biggest issue that the lawsuit takes with the water pump design is that when the pump fails, the coolant is leaked and mixes with the oil leading to a ruined engine that must be replaced.


The Ford Duratec water pump lawsuit alleged that millions of 2007 to present Ford vehicles are equipped with the allegedly defective water pumps that can cause engine damage. The plaintiffs in the case allege the water pumps can fail without any warning since the coolant leaks into the oil. One Ford Edge owner said the engine in their vehicle failed, and it cost $7,600 to replace the engine.

Another Ford Edge owner says that the engine failed on the highway, and it cost $1,200 to replace it with a used one. The owners claimed that the water pump replacement was expensive as well because of the location inside the engine leading to repair bills as high as $1,500. In the Ford Duratec water pump lawsuit, the plaintiffs alleged that Ford deceived customers into believing the water pumps will last about 150,000 miles without the need for maintenance.


The suit filed 55 claims under 11 states’ laws, but all 55 were dismissed save two claims from one plaintiff. Those two claims were settled out of court with Ford leaving the entire case dismissed. The judge dismissed the suit because the plaintiffs’ amended lawsuit didn’t plead facts that allowed it to be inferred that “Ford knew or should have known the water pumps in the Cyclone (Duratec) engines were defective.”

 

[yaycandy]

Another engine destroyed by bad design. This is why I did my research and got a G2 SHO that's still going, and would not get a G3 or G4. Break a timing belt? Put on a new one. Maybe a nice 2008 Taurus or Montego Duratec with a $35 water pump, or 2013+ Fusion Hybrid and go 600 miles on a tank.

Wikipedia:

Water pump issues
Water pumps on transversely mounted 3.5L V6, 3.5L EcoBoost V6, and 3.7L V6 engines have a tendency to fail and potentially ruin the engine when they do. The water pumps on these engines are internally mounted and driven by the timing chain. As a result, when they fail, antifreeze is dumped directly into the crankcase; mixing with engine oil and potentially damaging the head gaskets and connecting rod bearings. Many of these water pump failures occur without warning and repairs often cost thousands of dollars as the engine needs to be disassembled or removed from the vehicle to access the water pump. In some cases, the engine will need to be replaced outright. A class action lawsuit was started against Ford as a result of this issue. [9] All longitudinally mounted versions of the 3.3, 3.5, 3.5 EcoBoost, and 3.7 V6 use an external water pump.

CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT - dismissed with prejudice Feb 2020 (Ford will spend millions on out-lawyering - see V8 SHO)

A judge has dismissed the Ford Duratec water pump lawsuit that was brought against Ford by owners of vehicles that are fitted with Ford Duratec engines that have a strange water pump design. The water pump in these vehicles is inside the engine, behind multiple components that are required to be removed to get to the pump. The biggest issue that the lawsuit takes with the water pump design is that when the pump fails, the coolant is leaked and mixes with the oil leading to a ruined engine that must be replaced.


The Ford Duratec water pump lawsuit alleged that millions of 2007 to present Ford vehicles are equipped with the allegedly defective water pumps that can cause engine damage. The plaintiffs in the case allege the water pumps can fail without any warning since the coolant leaks into the oil. One Ford Edge owner said the engine in their vehicle failed, and it cost $7,600 to replace the engine.

Another Ford Edge owner says that the engine failed on the highway, and it cost $1,200 to replace it with a used one. The owners claimed that the water pump replacement was expensive as well because of the location inside the engine leading to repair bills as high as $1,500. In the Ford Duratec water pump lawsuit, the plaintiffs alleged that Ford deceived customers into believing the water pumps will last about 150,000 miles without the need for maintenance.


The suit filed 55 claims under 11 states’ laws, but all 55 were dismissed save two claims from one plaintiff. Those two claims were settled out of court with Ford leaving the entire case dismissed. The judge dismissed the suit because the plaintiffs’ amended lawsuit didn’t plead facts that allowed it to be inferred that “Ford knew or should have known the water pumps in the Cyclone (Duratec) engines were defective.”

Well Ford found that the water pumps were failing from quick corrosion. They found the issue was the Orange coolant. The switch to Yellow coolant has better anti corrosive properties. Still a coolant change isnt going to fix what 8 years of Orange coolant has done to the water pump.
Its best to replace the coolant pump and flush the system and run new Yellow coolant.

Water pumps have been ran by timing belts and chains for many years on lots or different car brands and engine platforms.

Yamaha messed up with the v8s, Mazda messed up with the Ecoboost platform. But much longer lasting fixes are available on both now.

Actually Ecoboost engines were designed to run Mazda's FL22 coolant but Ford wanted to use theirs. Look where that got them. My local Ford dealer has been telling people since the ecoboost was launched to run fl22 or equivalent coolant when changing themselves. Thats why Ford Yellow and FL22 coolant is nearly the same for corrosive properties. But Fl22 and Ford Green are the same i believe.

 

[Majestic]

Well Ford found that the water pumps were failing from quick corrosion. They found the issue was the Orange coolant. The switch to Yellow coolant has better anti corrosive properties. Still a coolant change isnt going to fix what 8 years of Orange coolant has done to the water pump.
Its best to replace the coolant pump and flush the system and run new Yellow coolant.

Water pumps have been ran by timing belts and chains for many years on lots or different car brands and engine platforms.

Yamaha messed up with the v8s, Mazda messed up with the Ecoboost platform. But much longer lasting fixes are available on both now.

Actually Ecoboost engines were designed to run Mazda's FL22 coolant but Ford wanted to use theirs. Look where that got them. My local Ford dealer has been telling people since the ecoboost was launched to run fl22 or equivalent coolant when changing themselves. Thats why Ford Yellow and FL22 coolant is nearly the same for corrosive properties. But Fl22 and Ford Green are the same i believe.

Do you have any pictures of corroded water pumps caused by running the orange coolant? The lawsuit doesn't allege anything about the coolant used causing the problem. Rather, the design of the pump itself and its location is the issue.

The orange coolant is fine. Installing a defective and poorly designed pump is the issue. And making it impossible to service for a normal person is even more troublesome. I've been running the orange in my F150 for well over 100k miles with no issues. They used a better designed water pump on it that can actually be changed out by a somewhat competent shade-tree mechanic. And if the pump fails? It won't ruin your engine in the process.

 

[TanK203]

Guys, I need either a shoulder to cry on or some advice, or both.

So the car has been in the shop for 2 months, they've torn it down, went back and forth with the warranty company and I found out today that the claim is being denied, and here's why.

Supposedly they have determined that the coolant/oil mix was caused by a failed oil cooler. The oil cooler is explicitly not covered by the warranty and therefore the claim is denied. I'm at a total loss of what do do here. I don't and cannot pour more money into this car, it has been the car from ****. As a last resort I've reached out to the dealership i bought the car and coverage from to see if there is anything they can do, but I am literally praying for a miracle at this point.

 

[SHOCALL]

What a load of crap. I'm sorry you have to go through this horrible situation.
My ext. warranty covered my water pump and timing components when my 2013 failed at 99k, no questions asked.
I bought my warranty from Route 66, they were recommended by my credit union.
I would be having a strong conversation with the warranty company.
How can they prove it was the oil cooler that failed?

 

[TanK203]

What a load of crap. I'm sorry you have to go through this horrible situation.
My ext. warranty covered my water pump and timing components when my 2013 failed at 99k, no questions asked.
I bought my warranty from Route 66, they were recommended by my credit union.
I would be having a strong conversation with the warranty company.
How can they prove it was the oil cooler that failed?

I agree. Everyone thought it was the water pump. And the warranty company made the comment that it was pretty obvious it was the oil cooler that failed and they didnt even need to tear it down as much as they did (which now I am on the hook for). But I've looked through the documentation I have, and don't see oil cooler explicetly called out as not covered, so I'm gonna push on that, and also how they can prove it was that, and check with the dealership to see if that was their determination also. I get it, the warranty company's goal is NOT to pay out. Thanks for the advice.
This is CNA National for anyone who is curious or might have some secret weapons I can use with them.

 

[SHOCALL]

Due diligence is the key. Talk at length with the dealership. I feel like you should be able to use the class action lawsuit v Ford as precedent. It may be a fools errand, but I would throw as much data at them as possible. If they still don't cover, you can ask for a refund of your warranty.

 

[Jordan_R]

I'm at a loss here. Is the oil cooler fed by coolant? I don't have one and never looked into the details behind it. Thought it would had been it's own seperate cooler divided from any coolant.

 

[TanK203]

I'm at a loss here. Is the oil cooler fed by coolant? I don't have one and never looked into the details behind it. Thought it would had been it's own separate cooler divided from any coolant.

That's what I am trying to understand too. The way it was explained, the cooler failed and allowed mixture which to me would indicate its more of a heat exchanger than a radiator. The thing thats got me scratching my head is this.
Both the water pump and the oil cooler were found to be damaged. The water pump IS covered, the oil cooler isn't. But somehow the warranty company was able to determine the oil cooler is what failed FIRST, and because of that they won't cover the repair. This seems odd to me because 1. how did you determine that without a time machine? 2. What part of the oil cooler which is just a heat exchanger/radiator would cause the water pump to fail? 3. Isn't it convenient that you determined the part you don't cover was the cause, and not the part you do cover?

 

[Jordan_R]

That sounds like an extremely convenient situation and they are probably thinking you won't look into it. Anywho, assuming the oil cooler being divorced from any coolant I'm not sure how it could cause the mixing and assuming the oil cooler failed wouldn't that make an external oil leak which would also cause a low oil pressure situation?

Now onto the mixing. Oil had to be in a coolant passage and vice versa. Only spots I could think of that happening is well ding ding ding the water pump or somehow like a crack in the block or something else extreme.

 

[TanK203]

That sounds like an extremely convenient situation and they are probably thinking you won't look into it. Anywho, assuming the oil cooler being divorced from any coolant I'm not sure how it could cause the mixing and assuming the oil cooler failed wouldn't that make an external oil leak which would also cause a low oil pressure situation?

Now onto the mixing. Oil had to be in a coolant passage and vice versa. Only spots I could think of that happening is well ding ding ding the water pump or somehow like a crack in the block or something else extreme.

And the resivooir was FULL of oil when it overheated and I pulled it over.

 

[TanK203]

This is apparently what the oil cooler looks like. It's basically a heat exchanger. So how does a heat exchanger crack at less than 3K RPM? - https://www.discountfordpartsfromso...rus-SHO-Oil-Cooler-p/8a8z-6a642-a-1665186.htm

 

[Johnbigdog]

I think only the p.p. cars have the oil to coolant oil coolers if I recall along with the ptu cooler and the added oil to air trans cooler?

Has the dealership removed the oil cooler and pressure tested it by itself? if the cooler failed there will be air bubbles that come out of the cooler on the oil side. So they can use a cooling system pressure tester and made up hoses to presurise and cap the cooler, let it sit and on the oil side look for bubbles. I would not say that pressure loss alone would condem the oil cooler unless they sprayed soapy water on the fitting they made up and found no leak points. If they condemned it based on pressure loos that could be the tool itself that is bad and why you would use soapy water to check and look for air leaks.

On ford side of repairs you tear down to determine root cause and extent of damage, BUT some aftermarket warranties require prior approval and other fun stuffs based on what the dealership finds. Its a fun process. (Not really)

Basically ask the how and why from the warranty company and the same of the dealership.


Clear as a chocolate milkshake? (Get it thats an oil coolant mix pun and the best I canndo for the night)

 

[TanK203]

I spoke with the dealership and the warranty company. They did the test you mentioned about putting air in the oil side, submerging it in water and seeing bubbles come out of the coolant side.

When asked why they wouldn't cover that part they said that the warranty plan I had was not fully inclusive. That only parts mentioned on the contract were covered, any other parts are explicitly not covered. I read the contract and that is accurate, however what was confusing to me was that I didn't know what level of coverage I had actually purchased. None of the paperwork indicated what contract level was purchased, and the pamphlet I was given by the dealership was for the all inclusive package, not the one I was sold.