many many questions in this one thread

[KeystonePowderCoating]

I understand that this is a very long post, but I really need advice so if you're up for it, please take a minute or Ten to read over this


I just recently purchased a 1993 mtx that was for sale in the classified section. It is truly a very clean car and I plan on owning this car for many many years to come. The car was sold with having the 60K done to it but the car now has 108xxx miles.

I have an extrude honed & bbb intake + SS cold air intake + Stainless Y pipe w/ cats that I had planned on installing as soon as I brought the car home.

Once I removed the factory intake, I noticed that one of the plug well seals in the back is starting to slightly leak. I'm thought about just replacing the valve covers gaskets / seals and being done with it.

But that isn't usually how I go about doing things. If I find out about one thing, I like to take it a step or two or three further and do even more maintenence work.

I figure since I'll have the valve covers off, why not check and replace any shims since the car is just a small leap away from 120K.

To take it even a step further, why not go ahead and toss in a set of stage 1 cams while I'm there. Now is the time..



So this leads me to question #1.

I contacted one of the best engine builders in this area. He does a lot of high hp mustangs, sprint cars, even Honda, Neons, etc.. He said that if I supply him with a set of good core cams, he can have them sent out and reground. (I'm not 100% sure but I do believe he said that he sends them to Comp cams for the regrind) I asked just how he will know what is the correct grind for the cams since he doesn't have a whole lot of experience working strictly with SHO engines. His reply was that Comp will give advice on how to grind depending on how the car is going to be driven. (Such as Nat Aspirated / Daily Driver / Occasional spirited driving to show up a Honda)

What do you think about going this route. The engine builder has a phenomenal reputation in my area as being one of the best. I trust his word, but I'd also like to know what people think about this vs. buying the Colt cams that are out there? I can save over 50% off the Colts with going with my local builder.




Second.. While I have the intake and valve covers off, the Fuel rails are right there.. With the car having 108,*** on the clock, I think it wouldn't hurt to either send the factory injectors out to be professionally cleaned or pick up a set of aftermarket / performance injectors.

I never have any plans on adding Forced Induction and from what I can recall, the OEM injectors are more than adequate for simple bolt on HP adders, even cams.. Should I even worry about cleaning the injectors?




Third.. Since I'm going to all this effort, why not toss a set of fresh rod bearings in there for piece of mind.. The question that I'm having now, is that with the intake / valve covers / fuel injectors / oil pan off of the car, should I just go ahead and pick up a full gasket kit or should I pick up the gaskets separately (meaning a separate package has just the gaskets to do only the valve covers, another package has the intake gaskets, & so on.. ) I know this is more of a logical question, meaning.. Well all you have to do is the math and ****, you have your answer.. But in reality, I'm thinking more of the lines of, If I buy an entire gasket kit, that gives me all the more reason to replace the timing belt, cam seals, & front main seal.





Fourth, What should I do with replaceing the plugs & wires. These are just another thing that I might as well replace since their right there. I care about proper fitment because I don't want any water to get down by the plugs creating a grounding-out problem. From my understanding, the OEM's plugs are best matched with either Taylor / AC Delco / OEM wires which all have a perfect fit. Is it still true that only OEM plugs fit properly, or has another company made a set for our cars? Should I look into any better plugs & wires or are OEM size good enough?



Fifth, this starts more of a twist towards suspension. Right now the car has a Koni's, Eibach's, & a set of aluminum SFB's. I have a set of reinforced motor mounts sitting on the shelf collecting dust that I might as well toss on the engine. The suspension is tight on the car, but I did notice that many of the suspension bushings look to be OEM (soft rubber). The car has a tight feel to it while driving, but I believe it is time to replace the rubber bushings. Several years ago when I replaced bushings on another SHO, I picked up a set of TWR / Federal Mogul bushings from Advance Auto Part. Now, I see a lot of people talking about TPR. What is the difference / benefits from either company. Is Napa the place to get TPR? Who makes TPR.. Moog?





Sixth, I'm already looking at buying a set of Kazera KZ-V wheels. I have a set of Baer PBR calipers / knuckles / rotors that I pulled from a modified SHO that I purchased a few years ago. I understand that a lot of people talk against doing the 13's in the rear, but for aesthetics only, I really really like the way they look, especially with the Baer EradiSpeed drilled / slotted / zinc washed rotors. I did a search on here trying to find a really good write-up on how to modify the rear brakes to fit 13" rotors with OEM calipers. By the way, I do understand that you have to use 90-92 rear knuckles & calipers, which isn't a problem because I have a set of 90 knuckles and I'll pick up a set of new calipers. I'm not much of person who buys a pre-built kit. I have access to a full machine shop so I'd much rather build the brackets. I just need pointed in the right direction.





Seventh, I haven't got to seventh yet. I guess you could call it writers block. I'm sure that once I look again at the car, more ideas will start brewing up.


With what I've wrote above, let me know which direction I should go with this car. Any and all advice is much appreciated!

-Scott-

 

[LOUDSHO92]

1) I think Comp cams makes SHONuts cams. I would not go the custom route as you will need lash caps. Also cams are a seince and an art. They can make a good grind but may not do what they planned on. I owuld go with SHONut or wait for SHoBros.

2) Could just go with fuel injector cleaner.

3) There are kits available.

4) Taylors and OEM

5) TPR are made by Moog so I wouls go with them. Very good stuff. Aleo get teh strut rod bushing retainer welded in.

6) I owuldnt bother with 13's in the rear 11.6 with bias plugs already is a lot of braking. SHOBros sells the kit for the rear brake conversion. 13's wont be offered much longer.

 

[TYSHO]

Lower your prices on eBay for intakes and we can help!

 

[TYSHO]

4) Taylors and OEM

The AC Delcos are good, too, just like OEM.

 

[KeystonePowderCoating]

1) I just checked out shonuts website and they say Colt cams. I really don't care who does the regrind, just as long as it works. I'm just starting to dabble around with performance internals, so I didn't know if there was a lot of trial and error when it comes to finding the right cam & seeing how the engine reacts, or if you simply entered the numbers into a computer program and it spits out a code. You then enter that code in the cam grinder, and it turns out a perfect working set of cams for your engine.


Also, is it true that you will not realize the full potential of the cams without first degreeing them? I read something about this a while back. I guess there is no such thing as a "drop in" cam. Can someone better explain this?


2) There are no problem with the current injectors. But I've heard that nothing works as well as a true professional cleaning and balancing. With the price of gas being so high, even if I can pick up an extra 3-4 mpg, the professional cleaning is going to pay for itself. Plus it gives me the warm fuzzy feeling of knowing that I fixed the injectors the right way, vs a $2 bottle of cleaner.


6) I purchased a 11.6 rear upgrade brackets from midwestsho years ago when he was selling some stuff on eBay. I have never got around to bolting the kit on. Now I see that some people have done the 13" front and rear. I'm not concerned about how well the distribution is. I don't want to hear all about all of the you don't need it, etc. I know I don't need it. But I want it. Please understand that I'm just asking how it is done. Is there any write-up on the net that shows how to do the 13" in the rear. Like I said in the first post, I can build the brackets.


On a side note, I feel the engine dress up kits on ebay are reasonably priced for the amount of parts that you receive. Usually it includes many extra brackets, exhaust shields, etc.. Plus, all of the parts are done and ready for immediate bolt on. No need to remove your current parts and having your car down for weeks / months on end while you send everything out to have the work done.

 

[LOUDSHO92]

1) Cam grinders will come up with what they think will work, which may not always work. Again you will need lash caps which some will not know about.

You dont have to. Plenty of people have gotten good gains off of just dropping in cams. Some may be off, SHOBros is working on it and I am sure SHONuts are very accurate. You would need adjustable cams to work with the degree wheel.

2) Well you can do that to. Just make sure you get the seals in right.

6) Okay no prob just saying. The 13" is the same as the 11.6, eaxct same just the bolt holes are moved out farther. You can get them through SHOBros. The knuckles are different for the Gen1 and Gen2 in the rear.

 

[KeystonePowderCoating]

So if I take the brackets that initially came with the rear 11.6 upgrade, and redesign my own brackets with moving the holes out further, the setup will bolt right on. Do you know how much further out the bolt holes need to be?

So in other words, the hat spacing for the 13" rotors is the exact same as the 11.6 rotors on center. The only difference between the 11.6 rotor vs the 13' is strictly diameter only. Width and offset isn't at all changed. If that is the case, it'd take nothing to whip out a set of new brackets. All I need to know is how much further out the holes need drilled. Can I safely assume 1.4"?


On another note, I figured out my 7th & 8th questions.


7th. I want to upgrade the exhaust even though the current exhaust is in great condition. I've heard good stories about the dynomax system matched with the stainless y-pipe. Little to no rasp with an increased rumble. What about the life expectency of the dynomax vs. summit turbos. I've heard the summits tend to rust from the inside out, so powder coating the outside of the summit's would have little benefit. For a while I saw Borla's around the $500 region, but I believe this was liquidation when they were going to stop making them. I guess they restarted making them again and price is close to double. Is this correct? Are there any other good tried & true catback systems?

8th. I know that MAF's have been beat to death, but so far after hours of reading about them, I can't figure out which is the best way to go. Several years ago I picked up a 80mm MAF from eBay. It came with the extra bracket mount. This thing has been sitting on the shelf for years now because I've never fully understood the benefits / loses. Back when I purchased this, the only option was a superchip or ted b lpm. Now that they have the datalogging Tweecer, I'm starting to dig up enough courage to play around with the maf.

Is the 80mm a direct bolt on besides tweecer tuning. Is the tuning something that I can mess around without causing damage to the engine. Meaning, are there any good starting points where I can make very minor adjustments and see how the engine responds. I understand that you can lean out the engine which over time will cause damage. That has been the single greatest reason why the 80mm maf has been sitting on the shelf.

Ultimately, I will take the engine to a dyno shop to have it professionally tuned, but I'm interested in learning how to play around with adjusting engine management myself.

 

[yamahaSHO]

6) Okay no prob just saying. The 13" is the same as the 11.6, eaxct same just the bolt holes are moved out farther. You can get them through SHOBros. The knuckles are different for the Gen1 and Gen2 in the rear.

Are you sure the offset is the same on the rotors?

 

[LOUDSHO92]

I am not sure on the offset to tell you the truth. I should of said it better. SableSal might be able to better answer the question.

You could if the offsets were the same, I am not sure of this.

7) The stock system does fine with a good set of mufflers. I have Dynomax and they have been fine. You could go with Dynomax or Borla. DynoMax car rust easier. You could have a custom one made for proabably around the same price.

8) The 80mm is a bolt on with the help of an LPM or Tweecer. You can screw up your car with the Tweecer but you can download files that will help you out. I would get one.

 

[KeystonePowderCoating]

7) The reason I initially asked about a complete cat back system vs. just adding new mufflers using the existing OEM pipe, was that I figured the OEM mufflers would differ on the input / output vs. dynomax mufflers.

Meaning, the dynomax mufflers needed the dynomax bent pipe so that it looked "factory" on the car. Or will a set of dynomax mufflers sit properly and look factory using the OEM catback pipe?

Also, where can I find a set of muffler tips that is going to give the car a factory look. I absolutely despise big / long chrome tips. I think that the OEM gen 2 tips are absolutely perfect for the car. That or turn down pipes tucked up behind the bumper out of sight but I still prefer the OEM gen 2 look.

8) I'll order the tweecer as soon as someone can inform me who is their cheapest authorized distributor?

 

[yamahaSHO]

For the TwEECer, I don't think you'll find any dealer less expensive than the other. I have found everyone has stayed with the MSRP. I would order it from Josh though....

 

[TYSHO]

For the TwEECer, I don't think you'll find any dealer less expensive than the other. I have found everyone has stayed with the MSRP. I would order it from Josh though....

Can't beat the free shipping!

 

[yamahaSHO]

Can't beat the free shipping!

Sure you can.... Have the Josh pay me for shipping

JK... I'm tired...

 

[PhysicsSHO]

1) You probably don't want to get the cams reground at random. The Yammahammer is a cleverly designed engine which is not easy to improve on, there are some cam regrinds available which (IIRC) add some top-end power but at the cost of low- and midrange torque. Suggest you consult Josh at SHONUT Performance or any of the other reputable SHO aftermarket guys.

2) Dirty injectors are not uncommon, and injector cleaner is no substitute for an ultrasonic bath and flow testing. The injectors are easy to get to -- you only need to pull the intake, no valve covers -- so there's no particular reason to do this now if you have no symptoms (e.g. engine missing or cylinder balance test code). Bigger injectors are only needed for forced induction or perhaps some of the bigger bolt-on combinations.

3) Yes, absolutely, with 100k on an MTX, do the rod bearings. Gaskets piecemeal are not so bad, look at SHONUT's or RCM's or Torrie's kits, usually the Fel-Pro from the car parts stores are cheaper and often the true OEM.

4) Plugs are an ancient subject of debate. Yes, the SHO plugs are (IIRC?) ISO height not SAE, read the SHOTimes archives here for clues to the aftermarket, or just get the Ford AGSP32FM.

5) TPR = thermoplastic rubber. Not a brand, a type, and usually the best kind of bushing material -- stiffer than rubber, doesn't squeal. A few of the OEM bushings are actually TPR. Moog (brand of Federal-Mogul) makes most of the available TPR replacement bushings, sold by all the usual suspects.

 

[KeystonePowderCoating]

1) So far it looks in favor for the 20 plus that Josh offers, if I do decide to go with cams. Plus, I get the shim kit with these, so if I don't go with the cams right now, but decide to shim them (just for good maintenance) I'll have to pay for a shim rental. Might as well **** two birds with one stone, Right?


2) Although the car might not show signs of dirty injectors, from what I've read on the net, a good ultrasonic cleansing and balance could restore power and lost fuel mileage that you don't even realize is missing. I figure for the roughly $75 that it takes to have them professionally cleaned and balanced, why not? My luck, I'd no more than get everything bolted all back together, take it for the first ride around the block, and an injector would clog up.

It's kinda like not replacing the rear main seal or the throw out bearing when doing a clutch job. 100 miles after installing the new clutch, you know that old bearing / rear seal is gonna let go. Murphy's Law.

3) Yep. Rod bearings are definitely marked on the list. I think I'm just going to get the entire gasket kit, that way I have everything all at once. Less headache when I find a little gasket that I forgot to separately order.

4) I am gonna pick up a set of AGSP32FM that way I don't have to deal with fitment issues. fordpartsnetwork.com has been down for a while. Did they change ownership or are they out of business? They used to have the best prices for AGSP32FM at around $25 IIRC. Now who should I turn to?

6) I want to jump back to this because I need clarification if the offset is the same for the 13" as it is for the 11.6. Not to come across as rude, but why is there so much secrecy / lack of public info behind some info such as this. What I mean is that with so many people upgrading to big brakes, so far nobody has a really great write-up on how to do it. There are some threads that are pieced together, but nobody has gone into their shop and took pictures of the steps as they did it. If I wasn't so busy, I’d be more than happy to take the pictures and do a full scale write-up. I'm just really surprised that nobody has done this yet. Again, nothing meant to be rude as I understand that most people do have a very hectic schedule as well.

 

[NJSHO]

Running 13" rears will slow your car down even when not braking. For all the money and trouble it takes to gain some power, this mod will rob some of that hard earned power while adding nothing but looks. You could minimize the loss with some 2 piece rotors for the front and rear.

Anyway to answer your question, the offset should not be the same for the 13" and 11.6". I have deduced this in the following manner: An unmodified Cobra Caliper Bracket will bolt up and work perfectly with a 13" Cobra Rotor. The bracket has to be modified (ie. ground down) so that it’ll center properly over the 11.6" rotor. The mounting surface of the bracket is what is milled down, moving the caliper closer to the hub. This means that the 11.6" rotors have a greater offset than the 13" Cobra's (ie. the rotor face is further from the hat face.)

All you wanted to know about front brake upgrades involving cobra calipers:
HERE

 

[shomesomesho]

If you are going to to all this work (and keep the engine N/A) you might as well take it one step further and put in a 3.2L

That way you could do the rod bearings with the engine out of the car.

 

[KeystonePowderCoating]

The 3.2 is out of the question at the moment. I have to cut off the workload somewhere and going with a 3.2 is just too much..

As for the brakes, the minimum is going to be a set of 11.6 in the rear. I understand there is more mass especially since it is bolted right to the spinning wheel. But running factory brakes in the back (although might be still functionally adequate, are not cosmetically adequate.) In this case, I'm gonna have to stray from what the consensus says, and pick either 11.6 or 13" in the rear. I have a kit that takes care of the 11.6 but I'm still interested in what it takes to build a 13" kit for the rear.

As for the link by NJSHO, that is all regarding fronts, which is a help, but I already have the fronts taken care of. I need to know what is involved with 13" in the rear.

 

[PhysicsSHO]

2) Although the car might not show signs of dirty injectors, from what I've read on the net, a good ultrasonic cleansing and balance could restore power and lost fuel mileage that you don't even realize is missing. I figure for the roughly $75 that it takes to have them professionally cleaned and balanced, why not? My luck, I'd no more than get everything bolted all back together, take it for the first ride around the block, and an injector would clog up. It's kinda like not replacing the rear main seal or the throw out bearing when doing a clutch job. 100 miles after installing the new clutch, you know that old bearing / rear seal is gonna let go. Murphy's Law.

It's not a bad idea at all, good preventative maintenance, the only point is that the difference with the RMS or TOB is that those are impossible to get to without pulling the tranny, so you need to do that while you have everything apart. The injectors are easy to access later on, just pull the intake (~30 min with practice), so you need not do that /now/ if you are presesed for time or money. But by all means, go right ahead.

BTW, if the car has 100k and you plan on owning it for a long time, if you have a lot of the engine bay apart it's a great idea (and a total PITA) to go ahead and replace all the hoses, heater and power steering. And pull the front end and replace the crank seal and the cam seals. Oh, where does it stop! ....

 

[jedhead]

7. I would just add mufflers to the stock pipe. The stock exhaust is free flowing as it is. Add mufflers for more noise.

8. Be careful in corners once you install the 13" rotors in the rear. Too much braking in the corner will have the rear end of the car beating the front around the corner. You will also get a lot of tail waging while braking hard. I would install a brake porportional valve to reduce the rear brakes' effectiveness.


Bob