Last post before SHO gets towed.

[IAS92SHO]

The SHO I bought in December appeared to be in great shape, it ran a little rough and I thought it was the fuel pump, the pump was making a lot of noise. Got the SHO home and a slight rattle noise was present (Similair to a loose heat shield). Replaced the fuel pump and fuel filter. Started her up, and now the noise was much louder. So i thought it was valve clatter, so I did the 60K service including the water pump and cps, and timing belt. The valves all were within spec, and the cams and cam tensioners looked good. Started here up no noise for two minutes then the clatter (same noise as before) started and was really loud. Sounded like was coming from below, vehicle was up on jack stands, thats when i replaced the rod bearings, upper were showing copper, replaced them, crank was within spec. At the same time I inspected the cats, and they looked good, and the heat shields were not loose. Started her up, sounded good, two minutes later noise returns however quiter and came and went. Tried reving the motor, hesitates then drops to maybe 200 rpms and bounces back. Will rev if throttle is applied slowly. Noise only present from idle to 1800 rpms. Cycled the motor up to 3000 rpms three times then died and would not restart. Came back an hour later SHO started and same thing happened, ended in the motor again not running. If I try to move the car it stalls, no power. SO i've been working on this in my free time for the last 3 months and would like to wrap the project up. I'm looking for a mechanic that is familiar with the SHOs in SE Michigan. The only thing I got left is maybe the timing belt tensioner is bad but it seemed to be in working order when i changed the belt (good load on spring) or possible fuel injector clatter but do not know how to trouble shoot. Thanks in advance for any help.

92 MTX w/60K

 

[EZ4U2ENVY]

Hey if things dont go so good- i would even pick it up.. whats the body condition in and color.

Also, possibly the cps is bad on the car- i'm not sure if a cps can cause bad idling but once your car dies and wont restart until hour later would be a cps issue. maybe the sound is fron the front end because your timing belt might be off. you replaced basically everything - and if you replaced your own timing belt you might want to recheck it to see if its on dead center. goodluck and let me know if you want me to take it away for you.

 

[IAS92SHO]

Well i just replaced the CPS, I think i'm going to pull the upper and lower timing cover to confirm its a lined up right, however i did rotate the crank on install to make sure it was lined up right, but who knows.

The car appears mint inside in out. Black leather Interior, which looks brand new, I mean brand new. Exterior is green, with the raised cowl hood, tinted windows, moonroof, spoiler off a 93, new tires, new struts, underdrive pullies, and all the items I just did. I just bought it for $3,500 and put $1100 in parts into it. So it would be a little pricy for not running good.

 

[srfdude]

I'm guessing the noise is unrelated to the poor running. It may be the clutch. If there is no missing, you may have a fuel/sensor problem, such as IAB. I assume you did a thorough 60K, inc. plugs and wires. No oil in the plug wells. There may be one or more injectors fouled. It will take some troubleshooting, but I suspect you've done the worst of the work.
Mike

 

[AutoSHO]

IAS92SHO:
Well i just replaced the CPS, I think i'm going to pull the upper and lower timing cover to confirm its a lined up right, however i did rotate the crank on install to make sure it was lined up right, but who knows.

The car appears mint inside in out. Black leather Interior, which looks brand new, I mean brand new. Exterior is green, with the raised cowl hood, tinted windows, moonroof, spoiler off a 93, new tires, new struts, underdrive pullies, and all the items I just did. I just bought it for $3,500 and put $1100 in parts into it. So it would be a little pricy for not running good.

Hmm, would you like to give us some more symptoms of the problem? Have you checked the fuel pressure? That "knocking" has me perplexed. Does it occasionally suffer longer crank times? It might be the Camshaft Position Sensor, but that doesnt explain the power loss. How old are the plugs/wires? Brand New? Did the problem ever get any better or worse (as far as power) with the maintanence you did?

A few quick things come to mind:
(1) Tighten all the bolts on the intake, especially the crossover, and check to make sure the ground on the back passenger side of the intake is intact.
(2) Unplug the MAF and try running it.
(3) Check the TPS Sensor voltage, should be ~.75-.98 VDC at idle and ~4.6-5.0 Volts at WOT.
(4) Does it flash a check engine light? Have you checked the codes? Or tried running the KOER test?

Those are some simple places to start that can hopefully provide you with an answer. I remember that car selling through the forum here, so I hope you can get it going.

 

[IAS92SHO]

Thank you everyone for your help.

Yes I did do the pulugs and wires, Motorcraft. Intake was torqued to 18 ftlbs, and new $50 FelPro intake gaskets were used. Ground is in place, I love how much stuff they crammed in that corner of the engine bay. I drove the vehicle home from the purchase, 50 miles, horrible hesitation between idle to 3000 rpms. However the vehicle has not moved since all the maintance work. The rattling noise that comes about after start up worried me to much to run the vehicle for any length of time. It fires right up and goes to idle, however it hesitate if I apply throttle then starts to run rough. All trouble lights appear with key in ignition then go out after start up. No check engine light after start up.

As far as the clutch the noise is present weather the clutch is in the engaged position in neutral or in the disengaged position.

I rotated the crack a number of times to confrim belt was in the right position. The timing belt tensioner was released once the new belt was in place and I then tightened the bolt in it.

I'm going to try a timing light on it before I take the belt covers off, and pull the codes.

I'll do a search on how to check the fuel pressure and check that along with the TPS.

Thanks

 

[IAS92SHO]

Chris

Your right, i did a search and he was trying to sell it through the forum. Well those that were interested in it should be glad to know they didn't miss out on a great deal.

 

[AutoSHO]

IAS92SHO:
Chris

Your right, i did a search and he was trying to sell it through the forum. Well those that were interested in it should be glad to know they didn't miss out on a great deal.

Once you get it running it will be a very nice SHO, or at least the pictures I remember were very nice looking.

This knocking... is it a sharper, more metallic rapping, or a dull thud?

No power, hesitation at low rpms... check the fuel pressure. It almost sounds like it is Flooding the cylinders extremely badly with fuel, like an injector stuck open, and that is what is knocking.

Actually, that sounds very possible. An injector stuck open! Run the KOER and do the cylinder balance test, if it comes up with a certain cylinder bad, pull that plug. I bet you'll find it soaked with gasoline. I hope!

 

[IAS92SHO]

Chris thanks for the further input,

If i go from idle to half throttle quickly the engine hesitates and drops below idle, if i gently ease the throttle it will smoothly climb in rpms. The noise is like a heat shield ratting, or like your valves on a cold morning startup, but no consistantsy <sp>( a sharper metallic rapping )and it comes and goes but only between idle to 1800 rpms. No thud, and I checked for crank cancer. I have been trying to heat up the garage to about 70 for a couple of hours before startup to warm up the engine. I put Mobil 1 in after the 60K and boy did it sound bad once the motor warmed up. I have sense gone with a organic 10-40 and did the rod bearings. the sound was / is much quieter.

When I did the 60K and replaced the plugs, they were AC Rapid fires and looked horrible. The Intake runners all were carboned up on both the intake manifold and the cylinder heads except for the rear driver side cylinder head intake, it was clean as a whistle. I don't know what that means if anything.

Thanks Again, I'll let you know my code results.

 

[sdpatt]

Unless you had the crank damper positioned so the white line on the damper was aligned with the "0" mark on the lower timing belt cover (60 degrees BTDC on the number one cylinder and the most slack in the tensioner side of the belt), your belt tension may not be correct. Look here for directions on how to reset it with the engine assembled.

The hesitation on throttle tip-in could be an indication of a faulty throttle position sensor.

Sounds are hard to diagnose without being there.

 

[pjtoledo]

IAS92SHO:
,,,,,,. I put Mobil 1 in after the 60K and boy did it sound bad once the motor warmed up. I have sense gone with a organic 10-40 and did the rod bearings. the sound was / is much quieter.
,,,,,,
.

You had better get an oil pressure gauge on it real fast. Those are symptoms of very low oil pressure. Did you look at the main bearings?

Perry Toledo,Ohio

 

[AutoSHO]

IAS92SHO:
Chris thanks for the further input,
The Intake runners all were carboned up on both the intake manifold and the cylinder heads except for the rear driver side cylinder head intake, it was clean as a whistle. I don't know what that means if anything.

Thanks Again, I'll let you know my code results.

I think you just found your problem. It sounds very much like the injector corresponding to those runners is stuck open and is showering that cylinder in gas. Did you try running the KOER test yet?

Lets see, the rear drivers side intake would be the #3 cylinder. Try running the cylinder balance test.

Does the sound you're hearing sound like a marble rolling around in a tin can? Your catalytic convertor(s) could be bad.

 

[IAS92SHO]

Alright managed to get an hour to troubleshoot the SHO tonight. Started off running the codes, and came up withe the following:

KOEO:
did test 3 times

116-??????

542-Fuel pump secondary circuit failure
(vehicle has new Walbro 155 LPH pump and fuel filter)

KOER:
did test twice, same result

167-Insufficient throttle position change during dynamic responce test.

225-Knock sensor not sensed during dynamic responce test.

I went on to do the Cylinder Balance Test but my rattle came back after not being present since start up, and I had the SHO going for about 5 minutes. So i shut down. I got the nerve up to restart, noise gone, reved motor noise not there. I took the stethoscope i just purchased and listened to the valve covers, intake, clutch housing, oil pan, timingbelt cover, no noise present. Reved motor and the noise came back, checked everything agian, no new noises, then i checked the front most cat, and it sounded just like chris said, marble in a tin can. So hopefully this is the problem, but how do I confirm? I just took the Y pipe off to do the rod bearings and i shook the whole assembly after I welded one of the heat sheild back on, and nothing rattled. I'm wondering if once the cat warms up the material inside breaks apart?????

Also checked the fuel pressure at the rails:

30.5 psi with key on engine off
30.5 psi with key on engine on
40 psi with key on engine on vacuum hose off regulator.

Temp gauge is not moving in dash, already replaced sending unit and themostat


As a summary:

I think the cat is bad.
fuel pressure seems good
possible sensor issues from KOER
need to find out about mystery code number 116
and how to get temp gauge working on dash

Going to:
Confirm good oil pressure with gauge.
run KOER test once cat is confirmed as causing rattling noise.
Check timing belt tension with SDPATT instructions and confirm marks are in the right location.

Thanks agian for everyones help!

 

[AutoSHO]

Alright! I sure hope it is the catalytic convertor making your noise. I know some here have had similar symptoms from a bad cat. Hopefully that is all it is!

As for your KOER test:
When you performed the goose test, did you press the pedal to the floor and hold it there for a second (revs above 3K?) if not, that explains both codes you got in the KOER test. The "Goose test" is for the computer to test whether the knock sensor will detect knock when you put the pedal down. If you didn't puch the pedal very far down it will lead the computer to think the TPS is bad.

So, It would appear that the cat(s) would be the first thing to check. For now I think the best bet is to cut them out. If you have the resources to weld it thats the best, if not you might be able to take it to a shop, and have them give you 2 sections of pipe with clamps, so that you can re-adjust it to fit in the car.

I am still interested to hear the results of your Cylinder Balance test. I am suspicious of that one clean intake tract.

 

[IAS92SHO]

I took the plasma cutter to the cats, the front one was in about ten pieces and a chunk had gotten stuck sidways down the exhaust pipe. Took both cats out and rewelded it all back together. Have a little leak from where the Y-pipe connects but other than that the motor sounds great, no more rattle. I feel like a total ******* for not checking that better before, but my rod bearings did need to be replaced.

The engine is still hesitating when throttle is quickly applied. I took the upper and lower timing cover to check the timing. I rotated the crank till the the dot lined up perfectly with the bump out thats @ 5 o'clock and my cams with their dots were right at 12 o'clock. This is the way it should be, correct?

So I'm going to set the belt tensioner and start her up and check the codes. My prior goose test i just took the engine to about 2,500 rpms, so thats most likely the issue.

 

[IAS92SHO]

The SHO is back together and the cat must have been causing all the problems. The engine sounds good and the is no more stumble when throttle is applied quickly. The engine cylinder balance test came back good, however I'm still getting 167 and 225 on the goose test. This time I let the engine warm up for about 20 minutes and took the engine 3,500 rpms at which point the check engine light faintly flickered. I'm going to install the oil pressure gauge to be on the safe side before the SHO becomes the daily driver.

Thanks for everyones input.

Ian

 

[AutoSHO]

The code 167 may be pointing to a bad TPS. Since it keeps popping up I would guess it may be bad. They are cheap so it is probably worth replacing it. It will make the car more responsive if it si bad.

Since it has been cold, ignore the Knock Sensor code unless the car pings. When it is this cold it would be really hard to get the car to ping anyways.

 

[centaurus3200]

IAS92SHO ,

good job figuring out your car.

i am almost positive the only thing standing between you and a whole bunch off ****** off hondas (when you whoop their collective *****) is a TPS!

my car would choke on itself and die if you stabbed the throttle. if you slowly rolled it on, then it would rev to redline.

turned out to be a bad NEW tps. we put on one from my friend's sho and the thing went instantly back to being the screaming little bitch that it is!

good luck,
Robby

 

[SHOnuff93]

Robby is actually right this time, the hesitating revs sounds like a TPS, if you are confident yours is good, just borrow one before you buy a new one.

that TPS on robby's car really ****** me off, i knew the timing was right, just wouldnt run right, damn new TPS not working properly and giving me such trouble.

Oh well, you will get it fixed, good luck with the 92.