Keep blowing out spark

[whiteguy3]

So are they not matching what stock ignition supplies?

That's a good question but...

I think it will surpass it when these bugs are worked out. Were crossing into something new and were gonna figure it out. I do not have a mindset of reverting back to plugs and coil pack. I think having a wire harness for COP like we do, getting rid of a coil pack and spark plug wires with a more efficient spark is enough of a gain to put the work in to this and figure it out.

The video i posted above is great...Take a look.

 

[yamahaSHO]

I'd imagine there is enough random info for COP that it shouldn't be too hard to figure out.

Question is... Will the gain be measureable?

 

[whiteguy3]

Based on the advantages I wrote earlier...

I think having a wire harness for COP like we do, getting rid of a coil pack and spark plug wires with a more efficient spark

...those right off the bat are enough 'gains' for me. I consider loosing a coil pack and wires a huge plus. Removing the entire ignition system on our cars with COP takes literally 1 minute, including the wiring.

 

[yamahaSHO]

Not nearly what I was looking for.

Surprisingly, the SHO's ignition is very good from the factory. I don't care about claiming that I have "more efficient spark". I want to see it perform. If on a boosted setup you can't get a measurable increase on the SAME dyno, I would have to claim, "Myth Busted".

I mention boosted because it is much easier to get bigger gains that don't read as dyno inaccuracy or variation between runs.

 

[whiteguy3]

Obviously COP isn't for everybody then...I gave my own reasons why it makes sense for me:

those right off the bat are enough 'gains' for me.

No offense man, but it seems as though your looking for reasons not to use it unless somebody else works out why it's more efficient or has noticeable gains. Were looking for input into this issue of blowing out spark with COP.

 

[yamahaSHO]

You're partially right, I haven't seen a reason to do it on these cars, but I'm trying to be convinced. I believe Tim is as well. I understand the theory and function of COP design and the 'book' has already been written on the how and why of that.

I do realize there are people that just like to mod cars and some of which like to do something different with them.

 

[nik97]

IIRC from a previous COP discussion, the retrofitted COP on SHO's uses half the primary current that would normally be induced into the primary windings of the factory coil. Pull up a SHO COP diagram and look.

Boost will find weak ignition.

 

[SHOZ123]

Iridium plugs should help. Cops work great on my turbo.

 

[whiteguy3]

I think were going to try Autolites 'racing' plug. Drew found the part number. Also try a tighter gap to rule a gap issue out (something under 30).

 

[SHOZ123]

You should read up on the Fine Wire Iridiums as far as voltage problems. The thinner the wire the easier it is to jump the gap. I think Denso is the finest followed by everyone else.

Denso is 0.4mm
Autolite XP is 0.6mm
NGK is 0.7mm

The yellow bar is Denso.

And from what I understand almost all the COP setups operate at a lower voltage than the multi coil packs do.

 

[BlackonBlack89]

I think were going to try Autolites 'racing' plug. Drew found the part number. Also try a tighter gap to rule a gap issue out (something under 30).

That's wat I run ar3910 2 steps colder. Only negative is that last like 5k miles.

 

[yamahaSHO]

Iridium plugs should help. Cops work great on my turbo.

You should read up on the Fine Wire Iridiums as far as voltage problems. The thinner the wire the easier it is to jump the gap. I think Denso is the finest followed by everyone else.

Denso is 0.4mm
Autolite XP is 0.6mm
NGK is 0.7mm

The yellow bar is Denso.

And from what I understand almost all the COP setups operate at a lower voltage than the multi coil packs do.

IIRC, some of the TX guys had them falling/blowing apart in the cylinders. I had Iridiums until I read about their issues and then switched to below. The thread should still be here and several made the switch back to copper.

That's wat I run ar3910 2 steps colder. Only negative is that last like 5k miles.

Hmmm... Might need to work on the tune. I get about twice that (or more) out of mine.

 

[SHOZ123]

I would think that the plug problems were early iridium plugs, improper heat range or improperly designed one. They come from the factory now with 100k life expectations.

And there is always the racing line of iridiums you can get now.

 

[whiteguy3]

Like the info that's coming in...I'm most likely gonna make a write-up when we do the intrepid boots too. I believe some modification will need to be done, hence the write-up.

 

[BlackonBlack89]

Jason its not might...... it needs a tune badly! And charge cooling and a clutch. Oil cooling too. That's a big one

 

[gmorrell]

IIRC from a previous COP discussion, the retrofitted COP on SHO's uses half the primary current that would normally be induced into the primary windings of the factory coil. Pull up a SHO COP diagram and look.

^^^This^^^

The coil drivers in the DIS module are current limited to protect them from damage. When you change from the original waste-spark 3-coil pack to six individual coils, the current per driver probably doesn't double just because you now have two COP primary coils on each DIS driver. In fact, it's probably safe to assume the current in each COP primary is half, or perhaps a bit more than half of what the OEM 3-coil pack sees. This makes for a serious spark energy deficit.

Dwell energy (which is stored as magnetic field lines, mostly in the core of the ignition coils) is primarily related to inductance, current, and time to get the core saturated (dwell time...), and if the available dwell current is divided by two and spread amongst two coils instead of one, spark energy is lower - it gets worse.

Technically, stored energy in an inductor or an ignition coil is E = 1/2 LI^2 where L is the inductance, I is the current, and E is the stored energy in joules. Here, the (I squared) term just makes it worse, because if you half the current, the stored energy available for a spark is now one-forth.

Additionally, once the dwell time is long enough to completely saturate the magnetics; additional dwell time doesn't add to the spark energy, it just adds additional heat to the ignition coil.

 

[gmail]

Like the info that's coming in...I'm most likely gonna make a write-up when we do the intrepid boots too. I believe some modification will need to be done, hence the write-up.

im not sure if the ford coils will make a difference but when i did the COP chrysler coils with the same boots i had to cut them down a little over a inch if i remember and cut the spring wire inside down a bit further then that followed by stretching them out to make contact with the plug and COP.

also you will need to hone them out or they will fight you.
i also used my grinding wheel to make them look fance by tapering the ends

 

[whiteguy3]

The coils themselves should not make a difference, but the boots will most likely have to be drilled open a little bit and cut shorter to make a tight seal. Reusing the springs from the old coils should not make a difference. The springs are not the problem, it's the sealing of the boot where spark likes to leak from what I've seen.

 

[gmail]

ok well good luck i just didnt know the difference... if you check the thread for the COPs i have pics showing the chrysler ones so you get the idea of what i mean.. the coil has a taper where the boot locks on, you would have to see it to understand.

yeah i dont think the springs would make any difference i was mainly letting you know as per what i had to do.

you will indeed get a tight seal with them i can promise that

 

[Sho Amo]

^^^This^^^

The coil drivers in the DIS module are current limited to protect them from damage. When you change from the original waste-spark 3-coil pack to six individual coils, the current per driver probably doesn't double just because you now have two COP primary coils on each DIS driver. In fact, it's probably safe to assume the current in each COP primary is half, or perhaps a bit more than half of what the OEM 3-coil pack sees. This makes for a serious spark energy deficit.

Dwell energy (which is stored as magnetic field lines, mostly in the core of the ignition coils) is primarily related to inductance, current, and time to get the core saturated (dwell time...), and if the available dwell current is divided by two and spread amongst two coils instead of one, spark energy is lower - it gets worse.

Technically, stored energy in an inductor or an ignition coil is E = 1/2 LI^2 where L is the inductance, I is the current, and E is the stored energy in joules. Here, the (I squared) term just makes it worse, because if you half the current, the stored energy available for a spark is now one-forth.

Additionally, once the dwell time is long enough to completely saturate the magnetics; additional dwell time doesn't add to the spark energy, it just adds additional heat to the ignition coil.

So you are saying no matter what we do, the DIS is going to be the main issue. Im not quite understanding everything you wrote there, but is there some way I can get rid of the DIS and use something else to run these coils without using waste spark? I havent had the time to do much research on this because of the 4th and having some family issues, but I do plan to figure this out. Its probably going to require Megasquirt to run correctly. This is going to have to be reverse engineered from other vehicles.