How can I see if I'm "level" ?

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Eric VerValin

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Going to drop the subframe, and want my car to be as perfectly level as possible, to make adjusting the subframe nothing more than a matter of gravity. Where can I stick my level at to see? Body rails under the drivers seat? (To check front to rear level) There's not a lot that is flat under the hood, wondering where you guys put em. The front leading edge of my subframe is a little banged up and the level won't do crap for me there, so I'm looking for another place to put it. I have a nice $28 torpedo level with earth magnets, and also a 4' level too. Just wanna make this as painless as possible.
 

93rev2sev

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It's impossible to do. The weight of the engine is not perfectly centered on the subframe. It will tilt whichever way it wants and your perfectly level car ... wont. Also, it's not really a consideration when swapping subframes. Just eyeball it...yull be fine.

I suppose, if you wanted to ... you could level the car after loosening the subframe bolts. Then, adjust the rear end so the subframe is sitting level. That way, when you put the new subframe in it will be level...
 
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itwonder

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That sounds like a big pita to me (assuming you don't have a lift) and I dunno if it's worth it. I had mine up on front jackstands, so it was at an angle. I used an angle finder placed on the welded seam that runs along the bottom of the car just outside of the frame rails. The angle was around 2-3 degrees IIRC. Then, when I adjusted the subframe, I put the angle finder on the steel rod I used for a tool, and adjusted it so it was 2-3 off of vertical front to back. IOW 90 degrees to the previous measurement. Is that close enough? I guess I'll find out when I visit the alignment shop, but the car has been driving so nicely I have not bothered with it yet.
 
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Shoaz

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I don't think it's necessary and I doubt it'll even help. There are alignment holes in the front of the subframe near the front mounting points, and even if the car/subframe is tilted it's not that tough to stick a socket wrench (or a piece of rebar, just something narrow enough to fit the holes and long enough to get leverage) in there and move it around to where you want it.

I've done this at least half a dozen times and never found it difficult.
 

Eric VerValin

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Awesome man, thats the kinda thing I was hoping I would hear. :) I got everything off, but the collection of getting up super early, plus a long day of fixing 2 other vehicles, I got stalled after I got the halfshafts out. 2 bolts for the rack, 2 for the mounts, and then I should be ready to drop this thing. Pics coming soon. Got pics of my spare motor too, cleaning up nicley.
 

shoclown

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to check ride hight for allignments or frame concerns Ford Book States To measure from RF right behind the front tire at the fender lip and at RR right in front of the rear tire at fender lip DO NOT INCLUDE THE WELD ******. check at sub frame also stock hight should bee Gen 1-2 RF 6 7/8 RR 6 1/8 Gen 3 RF 8 1/4 RR 6 9/16

Now book says there is minor discrepeincies on model Maybe Sho PLus??
All numbers are with car loaded 150 pounds in front seats and 150 in two rear seats totaling 600 lbs.
 

Storm-Chaser

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Eric,
The point of using four jack stands (versus two) is so the vehicle sits relatively flat (fore-to-aft) - not perfectly level. :rofl:

When using only two jackstands, you will induce a large enough body angle such that once the subframe is removed, the suspended engine/transmission assembly no longer sits within the engine compartment at the same angle relative to either the subframe (important) and rear fire wall (not as important). Basically the assembly swings aft toward the firewall and makes the reassembly more difficult.

During re-assembly it results in the subframe hitting the rear unibody mounting points well before the front framerail mounting points. And depending on how the engine and steering rack are supported/suspended, this can result in additional interference from the steering rack depending on how the rack is (or isn't) secured when the subframe is dropped. Basically, I found that the steering rack, front stabilizer bar/brackets, and subframe rear-cross member all get pinched against the firewall as a result of the change and how the engine/transmission angles back against the firewall.

Also, when the vehicle is not sitting at an angle (four jackstands), you can also safely elevate the vehicle higher on the jackstands and have more room underneath when wrestling the transmission back into place.


:ohreally: Oh, and I thought you were going to call . . . :slap:
 

Bizzy

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When using only two jackstands, you will induce a large enough body angle such that once the subframe is removed, the suspended engine/transmission assembly no longer sits within the engine compartment at the same angle relative to either the subframe (important) and rear fire wall (not as important). Basically the assembly swings aft toward the firewall and makes the reassembly more difficult.

Really. Hmmm....when I did my clutch I had it up on 2 jackstands only and my motor/trans didn't budge an inch when I removed the subframe.

If you have everything tightened down, ie: chains that attach the motor to the engine support, it shouldn't move much if at all. Maybe my setup was different because it supported from 2 locations, one at the front and one at the back. (??)

Edit: What (if any) plans are on for this weekend guys? I need to start making plans here.
 

itwonder

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Eric,

When using only two jackstands, you will induce a large enough body angle such that once the subframe is removed, the suspended engine/transmission assembly no longer sits within the engine compartment at the same angle relative to either the subframe (important) and rear fire wall (not as important). Basically the assembly swings aft toward the firewall and makes the reassembly more difficult.

During re-assembly it results in the subframe hitting the rear unibody mounting points well before the front framerail mounting points. And depending on how the engine and steering rack are supported/suspended, this can result in additional interference from the steering rack depending on how the rack is (or isn't) secured when the subframe is dropped. Basically, I found that the steering rack, front stabilizer bar/brackets, and subframe rear-cross member all get pinched against the firewall as a result of the change and how the engine/transmission angles back against the firewall.

Also, when the vehicle is not sitting at an angle (four jackstands), you can also safely elevate the vehicle higher on the jackstands and have more room underneath when wrestling the transmission back into place.

I did not experience any of the problems you describe. It will not happen if you use an engine brace like the one I bought for the job that has a front and back lifting chain.

If it worked well for you that's great, but IMHO, four jackstands is counterproductive because when you raise the back of the car, that reduces clearance in the front for getting the transmission out, so you have to raise the whole car higher, which makes things harder to reach from below. I also much prefer the stability of keeping two wheels firmly on the ground if I'm going to be underneath the thing working.
 

Storm-Chaser

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I disagree.

Having had the transmission in-and-out twice at the end of August, and having assembled, disassembled, and then again reassembled the steel-bar engine brace we used, the results were the same both times.

Ryan (91 Plus) can verify the interference problems we had in only using two jackstands when trying to install the subframe and line-up the engine/transmission mounts, as well as the limited space in working under the car - because you simply cannot elevate the car very high with only two stands.

Perry (pjtoledo) can also verify that the engine brace (which he made :thumb:) was installed correctly. His brace provides two locations for supporting the engines using chains, lifting hooks, and clevis pins - one directly above the the engine's left-front factory engine hoist bracket, the second directly above the engine's right-rear corner, where the 10mm bolt is bolted into the head (95 MTX). These are the exact same two locations that SDpatt uses in his homemade wood-engine brace, and is a very well constructed home version of the one that pops-up on ebay.

Additionally, both Ryan (91 Plus) and Matt (98shotoy) can atest to how little room there was under the car with two jackstands, when trying to remove and re-install the transmission.

First, I disagree that having the vehicle on only two jackstands and chocking the rear wheels (were the car is on an incline and the rear wheels can still rotate), that the vehicle is going to have more stability than when sitting level on four stands. I've never had a car "creep" backwards on four jackstands, like it does anytime your raising or lowering the vehicle to place it on two stands, or on those occasions where the rear tire chock gets inadvertently kicked-out while you're working underneath. Unless the stands are on an unstable surface to begin with - or you have people playing full-contact tackle football around the car - it's not going anywhere on four stands.

Second, the amount of workspace lost (unless you unsafely elevate the vehicle too high) is at best two inches, maybe three at the very front of the front bumper, which can easily and safely be compensated and exceeded when using four stands. We never had a problem reaching any items from below - if anything the problem was not having enough room underneath to maneuver to reach upward. The workspace aft of the rear subframe mount becomes progressively less, and the amount of workspace below the shifter assembly was marginal at best. None of this is the case when I've used four stands in the past.


I did not experience any of the problems you describe. It will not happen if you use an engine brace like the one I bought for the job that has a front and back lifting chain.

If it worked well for you that's great, but IMHO, four jackstands is counterproductive because when you raise the back of the car, that reduces clearance in the front for getting the transmission out, so you have to raise the whole car higher, which makes things harder to reach from below. I also much prefer the stability of keeping two wheels firmly on the ground if I'm going to be underneath the thing working.
 

Storm-Chaser

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:shrug:

Wish I knew !

I've been calling several times per day, and his wife has said he's at the garage (where we took the car lat month) working on it . . . .

I could have left already to get up there and help, . . . but I'm sure as **** not going to get burned for another $100 in gas (or more) to find out he's not ready.


Oh Eric . . . .

. . . you need to call/PM a few people before everyone says screw-it.



Hmm, . . . beginning to wonder if I can apply for a D.D.S. degree, after all the damn teeth I've been pulling here ! ! ! :laugh_ti:


....

Edit: What (if any) plans are on for this weekend guys? I need to start making plans here.
 

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