Headgasket Finally Went

[broke1]

1) yes ARP does sell studs/bolts for the SHO,just not in sets....u buy the bolts individually(u will have to supply length and thread pitch). Just like. Cosmetic sells SHO gaskets,ARP sells SHO bolts.....

2) no sir. Studs clamp from both x and y axis where as a bolt only clamps on 1 axis,the threads. Studs are way superior in clamping force.

3)wrong again. The studs come with an Allen head on the end so you can remove from the block. A 4th Gen F Body doesn't have anywhere near the umderhood room a SHO has and head studs are EASILY removed. Same on a Buick GN with the heater box over the PS cylinder head. You just remove the stud before the head.

 

[Dirk37]

Found some studs that would work from Summit, $15 a piece not including nuts and washers. That's $240 just for the studs that aren't necessary in my case.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-atp5350-1lb/overview/

Can you pleas explain how studs clamp on 2 axis and bolts don't? They're the same exact thing except that studs have threads on both ends.

 

[broke1]

Call ARP. The studs and nuts should be about $8.....cheaper if we can get them to sell as a set.

If ShoSource would call ARP(ask to speak to Ron Fruchy's),we could get them to package Both crank bolts,head bolts,head studs,intake bolts,and just about any other bolt needed on the SHO. Just like I told y'all about Cometic will make gaskets without a setup/drafting charge,ARP will do the same.

A head bolt has all its torque on the threads of the block.

A head stud screws hand tight into the block and when a nut is torqued down,it's pulling on both the threads in the block AND the threads on the head stud(X and Y axis).

Do a google search and you'll find many pages describing the advantage of studs.

And like I said,Allen head head bolts=cheapest bolt the manufacturer can find

 

[LOUDSHO92]

SHO Source has all of the part numbers to do the studs for the SHO but comments like this keeps them from stocking a thousand dollars in slow moving parts:

Found some studs that would work from Summit, $15 a piece not including nuts and washers. That's $240 just for the studs that aren't necessary in my case.

If you want them Mike can get them together.

As for Cometic they were only making the gaskets since they had the gaskets already. When requesting new gaskets I was told $3k in tooling per gasket.

 

[Dirk37]

When I get around to getting forged pistons I'll have to contact Mike because I want to go with studs. I was just saying I didn't need them this time and it would have been nothing more than an extra expense.

 

[Toolman]

I can't believe you guys would do all the work and not use at least ARP head bolts.....

I understand $$$ but ARP's are fairly cheap....another thing I've noticed in years of working on cars,Allen head head bolts=the cheapest bolts the manufacturer could find. Not anything I'd trust with boost.

Stud clamping force>bolt clamping force

Why fix what isn't broke? 500 ft lbs for 50k miles on stock heads and bolts.

 

[Toolman]

And while studs have advantages over bolts, none have to do with anything you listed broke1, in fact quite the opposite. It's because of a stud only acting on one axis which makes it a better choice for exact torque values.

 

[broke1]

Why fix what isn't broke? 500 ft lbs for 50k miles on stock heads and bolts.

Because when it breaks,it's usually a big mess to clean up and ends up hurting something else......you know this.

But you don't understand how a stud works apparently Google can be your friend Toolman.

If an extra $125 for some quality bolts is gonna break you,maybe you shouldn't have modified the car?

ARP's now can be used down the road should you decide to build the engine.

 

[Toolman]

If you need google to tell you a thing, than you don't actually know a thing.

I actually like spending money on silly SHO stuff. Likely have wasted more over the years than the average fool. But with the boost I'm running, and have been running for 15 years, there is just no need for studs, simple as that. Until these new gear sets were made, there was no hope of a trans lasting but a few pulls at the ludicrous power a 100% stock SHO engine is capable of producing. Which is why my current turbo engine has stock almost everything. No cams. No EH intake. No BBBs. No monster TB. Other than forged LC slugs, it's all stock. To spend the time and money to replace my head bolts with studs...

lipstick on a pig

Google it

 

[yamahaSHO]

The only person that really needs head studs that I know of is Zach. High compression with boost and E85 create some pretty high cylinder pressures. Back in my SHO days, we'd do 600whp on stock bolts while tracking and head/head gaskets were NEVER an issue.

That said, if we rewound to the days I built my motor, I would have done studs if I knew they were available.

Your face!

Google it!

 

[Toolman]

Silly Z, I can't do that, it would break the internet.

 

[broke1]

simple fact,you are wrong how head studs work.

If you won't Google it to see you are wrong,just keep regurgitating the wrong info.....

Havent seen a SHO at 600hp yet......600hp at the crank is at least 525hp at the wheels. SHO's are about 100whp short. At least the Gen 1 and 2's are.

It's a cheap upgrade......if you don't see the value in quality aftermarket fasteners,I don't know what to say really??

 

[Dirk37]

If you won't Google it to see you are wrong,just keep regurgitating the wrong info.....

Every time you reply I go to google and research studs, and every time I come up with the same answer - the only real benefits they have are more accurate torque values and that they don't wear out the threads in the block if the head is removed a lot. And in some cases, they are stronger than the stock head bolts.

I blew my headgasket because I was an idiot and did not take care of my car or treat it properly. I had water in the cooling system and overheated it pretty badly. It had nothing to do with not using studs.

You're dealing with some very intelligent people on this forum with a lot of experience in high performance sho's. They're the ones that pioneered the performance technology for them and pushed these cars to their limits. Even though I built a turbosho, I still learn from these guys all the time. Trying to tell all of them they're wrong just makes you look like an idiot.

 

[Toolman]

simple fact,you are wrong how head studs work.

If you won't Google it to see you are wrong,just keep regurgitating the wrong info.....

Here is what I stated about head studs: "It's because of a stud only acting on one axis which makes it a better choice for exact torque values."

Care to point out what is incorrect?

Havent seen a SHO at 600hp yet......600hp at the crank is at least 525hp at the wheels. SHO's are about 100whp short. At least the Gen 1 and 2's are.

520whp was achieved nearly 15 years back. 620whp was achieved nearly a decade ago. Those engines may indeed have had studs, but not really out of need.

It's a cheap upgrade......if you don't see the value in quality aftermarket fasteners,I don't know what to say really??

When it's not holding my build back in any way, shape, or form, taking the time to disassemble my engine, remove my heads, purchase and install studs, replace my heads and reassemble my engine is not something high on my list. The Yamaha is an iron block, I have never had the need to replace my head gaskets, and the current head bolts are performing their function perfectly. So no, for me, with my particular build, there is no value in spending time/effort/money on head studs. While you may not agree with my opinion, that does not make it a wrong opinion.

As far as my understanding of the forces at work when discussing the differences between studs and bolts, it needs no correction. Reread what you posted and I think you may see where your error lay.

 

[Toolman]

And hey, someone check Hades' temperature. Jason and I are agreeing on something !

 

[broke1]

Here is what I stated about head studs: "It's because of a stud only acting on one axis which makes it a better choice for exact torque values."

Care to point out what is incorrect?




520whp was achieved nearly 15 years back. 620whp was achieved nearly a decade ago. Those engines may indeed have had studs, but not really out of need.



When it's not holding my build back in any way, shape, or form, taking the time to disassemble my engine, remove my heads, purchase and install studs, replace my heads and reassemble my engine is not something high on my list. The Yamaha is an iron block, I have never had the need to replace my head gaskets, and the current head bolts are performing their function perfectly. So no, for me, with my particular build, there is no value in spending time/effort/money on head studs. While you may not agree with my opinion, that does not make it a wrong opinion.

As far as my understanding of the forces at work when discussing the differences between studs and bolts, it needs no correction. Reread what you posted and I think you may see where your error lay.

Really??

I see your 430ishwhp run talked about but no dyno sheets of anything higher???

So proof or it didn't happen since this is the interwebz

 

[yamahaSHO]

broke1, calm down. Tim knows what he is talking about and his quotes about the power that's been achieved long ago are 100% correct. I've personally been in, worked on, tuned, and driven [and owned] several SHO's over 520whp. In fact, with the new ECU and proper boost control, you'll see Zach's at 700whp, or very near it with the current turbo he is running. With the boost tapering, he made nearly a flat line of 520whp for almost 4,000 RPM with a peak torque of 560 ft-lbs at the wheels. Yes, he's on studs, but he's also trying to push this motor past it's limit and with 12.5:1 compression, boost, and E85, he can create some really high cylinder pressures.

When it comes to the head gaskets really living, control the low RPM torque as well as the aggressive timing down in that range too.

Havent seen a SHO at 600hp yet......600hp at the crank is at least 525hp at the wheels. SHO's are about 100whp short. At least the Gen 1 and 2's are.

We've been over this before... http://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/11-55-119-worlds-fastest-taurus-sho.130934/#post-1443854

 

[Devin]

Really??

I see your 430ishwhp run talked about but no dyno sheets of anything higher???

So proof or it didn't happen since this is the interwebz

This is not the "interwebz" at large, this is the SHO Forum: a specific and longstanding community.. There is more car knowledge here than in most places on the Web, and Tim, Jason, Tom, Zach, Scott and dozens of others have pushed their engines to the limit and have a lot of data on how they work.

I'm not saying you are wrong, I am saying that paying some deference to knowledgeable people is wise.

 

[Dirk37]

Great news everyone! My ******* headgasket blew again tonight. I did a pull from 20-80 and then it started getting hot. Pulled over and coolant had sprayed everywhere. It was bubbling in the overflow reservoir and smoking out the road pretty good. Exhaust smelled really sweet. Flat towed it back to my house. Going to do a compression test tomorrow and see what cylinder, I bet its the same one as last time.

Tonight was the first night I really got on it because my turbo's been dying and I was waiting for a rebuild kit. I rebuilt it last night so I thought I'd take it for a test spin and have some fun, but as usual things never go to plan.

When it happened, boost was at around 8-9 psi, fuel was 11.5:1, not sure on timing but didn't hear any pinging. Had 92 premium in it as usual. About 32F outside so there was a lot of air going through the engine.

 

[SHOdded]

Do you think the machining had anything to do it? Did they clean up the heads properly?