Estimated HP/TQ after mods

[steve142857]

Hey guys! As many of you know by now, I love numbers... So, I used a bit (actually too much) of time to do the following Excel spreadsheet to try to calculate (without going to the dyno) how much power my car now has after my mods. I( thought some of you might find it interesting too. My approach was to find the 0-60 and 1/4 mile times of different sporty sedan cars. I have put a website on another thread which I believe is quite accurate for stats (http://www.zeroto60times.com/Ford-0-60-mph-Times.html). I took my numbers from that site and made sure they were reliable... Some numbers might be faster or slower, but I put 23 cars, so it should be a fair sample.
I made some researches to find the HP and torque of all those cars and their curb weight as well. So, based on the average of power and weight of those cars, I believe that my car could have the equivalent of 450 hp and 450 torque... On a dyno, it could show less (not only because of drivetrain loss) because of the fact that our power (torque) is available sooner and throughout the power curve.
Here is the list of sample cars with their respective stats, enjoy :

 

[Phoenix]

Holy crapola , 4350 pounds.

Nice numbers BTW

You can always play with this :

http://robrobinette.com/et.htm

I punched down a couple known facts , and it works pretty good.

 

[steve142857]

Cooooool read......

Yea, we've all pretty much figured out by now how "into the numbers" you are Steve.

It's almost makes me dizzy to think about all the time you put into this my friend.

Thanks on behalf of the Gen4 community for doing this and posting it here! :thankyou:

It is time at work... lol! But I am not paid by the hour, so it is only time I take instead of reading about stock markets, etc. Who wouldn't prefer reading about cars?

 

[steve142857]

So, using the 1/4 mile ET Calculator posted by Phoenix, and incorporating the curb weight of our Gen4 SHO's as listed by Steve, and then going one step further by utilizing Darreli's 12.38 1/4 mile run.......

Would it be "safe" to estimate his (Darrell's) total HP at the motor as 531 ?

you tell me there "Mr. Numbers Magician" Stevo


Car weight: 4358

Wheel horsepower

* Flywheel horsepower

Horsepower: 531

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1/4 Mile elapsed time = 12.384378

I see that you are starting to like numbers too...
I calculated with another spreadsheet that Darelli's 0-60 should be around 3.9 seconds.
With his 12.38 sec. 1/4 mile and a curb weight of 4358lbs, the equilvalent of 531 hp looks a fair approximation. However, the dyno should reveal lower numbers, again due to drivetrain loss (higher on an AWD) and the fact that the power is available sooner and throughout the curve.
But by comparison,
1 ) a BMW M5 does 0-60 in about 4 seconds flat and a quarter mile of 12.4 ( very similar to Darelli's number) but weights a tiny bit over 4,000 lbs. It has 500 hp and 383 lbs of tq.
Given that each 100 lbs represents about 10 hp (or 0.1 sec on the 1/4 mile), with similar numbers, there is only the difference of weight of 350lbs that would require an additional 35hp to achieve the same. So, around 535 hp (or 531hp) sounds fair.
2 ) Mercedes E63 AMG : 4,035lbs, 507hp/465lbs, similar numbers, add 30hp for weight = about 535 hp again.
3 ) The best comparable (in terms of specs) : Panamera Turbo : 4,350 lbs, V8 Twin turbo, 4.7 l., 500hp/517lbs; 0-60 in 4.0 seconds flat and 1/4 mile close to 12 sec. would suggest that Darelli's car would be just a bit shy of those power numbers, but it seems to me that Porsche understates the power of its car and their transmission and aerodynamic are better too. (Panamera 4s : 4,268 lbs, 400hp/369lbs; 0-60 in 4.2 and 1/4 mile in 12.8... according to those specs, my car would have about 400hp and 375 lbs of torque...).

Ah numbers, they are only numbers... The best way to measure after all is at the drag...

Enjoy!

 

[SHO U UP]

I see that you are starting to like numbers too...
I calculated with another spreadsheet that Darelli's 0-60 should be around 3.9 seconds.
With his 12.38 sec. 1/4 mile and a curb weight of 4358lbs, the equilvalent of 531 hp looks a fair approximation. However, the dyno should reveal lower numbers, again due to drivetrain loss (higher on an AWD) and the fact that the power is available sooner and throughout the curve.
But by comparison,
1 ) a BMW M5 does 0-60 in about 4 seconds flat and a quarter mile of 12.4 ( very similar to Darelli's number) but weights a tiny bit over 4,000 lbs. It has 500 hp and 383 lbs of tq.
Given that each 100 lbs represents about 10 hp (or 0.1 sec on the 1/4 mile), with similar numbers, there is only the difference of weight of 350lbs that would require an additional 35hp to achieve the same. So, around 535 hp (or 531hp) sounds fair.
2 ) Mercedes E63 AMG : 4,035lbs, 507hp/465lbs, similar numbers, add 30hp for weight = about 535 hp again.
3 ) The best comparable (in terms of specs) : Panamera Turbo : 4,350 lbs, V8 Twin turbo, 4.7 l., 500hp/517lbs; 0-60 in 4.0 seconds flat and 1/4 mile close to 12 sec. would suggest that Darelli's car would be just a bit shy of those power numbers, but it seems to me that Porsche understates the power of its car and their transmission and aerodynamic are better too. (Panamera 4s : 4,268 lbs, 400hp/369lbs; 0-60 in 4.2 and 1/4 mile in 12.8... according to those specs, my car would have about 400hp and 375 lbs of torque...).

Ah numbers, they are only numbers... The best way to measure after all is at the drag...Enjoy!

Well said! That's what it all boils down to. At the strip!! You can have 1,000 hp Bugatti and if you can't drive or put power to the ground right, you're screwed. And...there's always someone out there with a faster ride than you.

 

[GigaHz]

Holy crapola , 4350 pounds.

Nice numbers BTW

You can always play with this :

http://robrobinette.com/et.htm

I punched down a couple known facts , and it works pretty good.

I put in my old C6 Vette. That calculator was off by 1.1 seconds. C6's run around 12.4 in the quarter. It said 11.3? 436hp 3200lbs. Best time I heard of was 11.7. Sorry did not see the rear wheel fly wheel. 11.9 is a little better.

 

[steve142857]

I put in my old C6 Vette. That calculator was off by 1.1 seconds. C6's run around 12.4 in the quarter. It said 11.3? 436hp 3200lbs. Best time I heard of was 11.7. Sorry did not see the rear wheel fly wheel. 11.9 is a little better.

I ran against a Corvette 436 hp last week it ran 12.48 sec. at 115mph... These predictor are what they are... they predict with only two variables... cannot make miracles...

 

[EcoBrick Bob]

Also doesn't consider frontal area.

 

[steve142857]

Also doesn't consider frontal area.

Hey Bob, you are right... Here are some more comparable SUV for your Brick. I would evaluate your equivalent hp to around 480hp based on the following (again it shows that Porsche is understating the power of their cars) :
2007 Mercedes ML 63 AMG V8 6.2L. 503hp/465lbs, 5,093lbs 4.5sec./13.0sec.
2006 JEEP SRT8 V8 6.1L. 420hp/420lbs, 4,788lbs, 4.4sec./13.0sec.
2008 CAYENNE TURBO V8 Twin Turbo 500hp/516lbs, 5,625lbs., 4.7sec, 13.1sec.

2010 Stock Flex EB, V6 Twin Turbo 355hp/350lbs, 5000lbs, 6.1 sec, 14.6sec.

EcoBrick Bob's Flex EB, 4,940lbs (because of lighter wheels), 1/4 mile of 13.06 sec.

So, 480hp is about what your Brick has in terms of equivalent power based on comparison.

Cheers!

 

[SHO U UP]

If indeed you are sitting near the 450 hp mark, be cautious on how much further you want to go. And Bob, if you are in fact at the 480 hp yourself, you best be real careful too. I'm not one to take a crap on anyone's parade here, but that's nearly +/-30% more power over stock. Remember that our internals aren't all that strong, and IIRC we have powdered connecting rods and that'll be a sure sign of failure in the years to come as folks push the SHOs to their limits.

I don't think Ford was building them to hold up to that kind of power. I know the Lightnings were popping motors back in the day, and still are, when they near the 120 hp over stock. I still want to tune mine so bad I can't see straight. I think it's awesome that we are able to get more power like that out of the SHO, but don't be too greedy.

 

[steve142857]

If indeed you are sitting near the 450 hp mark, be cautious on how much further you want to go. And Bob, if you are in fact at the 480 hp yourself, you best be real careful too. I'm not one to take a crap on anyone's parade here, but that's nearly +/-30% more power over stock. Remember that our internals aren't all that strong, and IIRC we have powdered connecting rods and that'll be a sure sign of failure in the years to come as folks push the SHOs to their limits.

I don't think Ford was building them to hold up to that kind of power. I know the Lightnings were popping motors back in the day, and still are, when they near the 120 hp over stock. I still want to tune mine so bad I can't see straight. I think it's awesome that we are able to get more power like that out of the SHO, but don't be too greedy.

Thanks for the warning... We all know that we are taking risks when modifying our car, but I believe that Livernois is going progressively in looking to enhance theperformance of the Ecoboost engines. When I say that I have the equivalent of 450hp/tq, it might be in fact more 425 according to a dyno. But I believe that the direct injection, the twin small turbos, the availability of torque at low rpm and to be able to keep all the power along the curve makes it the equivalent of a 450hp «normal» car... But I think my car is actually 15-20% more powerful than stock. My ET time on 1/4 mile went from 13.5 stock to 12.9 modded, which suggests rule of thumb) a 60hp increase and my 0-60 went from 5.0 to 4.3, which could translate in about 70lbs of torque more...
But all-in, until I would have to pay an actual repair bill, I think it is all worth it... I am enjoying this car like no others and it is night and day from driving it stock, which was already fast and luxurous, but no where near the fun to drive once modded. I actually think I am driving the SHO the way it should have come out of the factory... and probably everyone here that is running Livernois' tunes will agree...
So, SHO U UP, why don't you stat with LMS stage 2? It has been out there for more than a year and nobody ever had any troubles with it and that is at least 100 drivers...
Enjoy!
Steve

 

[darreli]

If indeed you are sitting near the 450 hp mark, be cautious on how much further you want to go. And Bob, if you are in fact at the 480 hp yourself, you best be real careful too. I'm not one to take a crap on anyone's parade here, but that's nearly +/-30% more power over stock. Remember that our internals aren't all that strong, and IIRC we have powdered connecting rods and that'll be a sure sign of failure in the years to come as folks push the SHOs to their limits.

I don't think Ford was building them to hold up to that kind of power. I know the Lightnings were popping motors back in the day, and still are, when they near the 120 hp over stock. I still want to tune mine so bad I can't see straight. I think it's awesome that we are able to get more power like that out of the SHO, but don't be too greedy.

I think the engine is a little more stout than you give it credit for.....

 

[steve142857]

I think the engine is a little more stout than you give it credit for.....

Hey Darreli! We've been talking about thepower of your car... The consensus (well between Mike and I) is that your engine produces the equivalent of about 530 hp... What do you think?
Thx

 

[darreli]

Not sure about engine power...it puts a little over 400 to the tires

Good info on here Steve...I like numbers too! Although maybe not quite as much ad you do!

 

[steve142857]

Not sure about engine power...it puts a little over 400 to the tires

Good info on here Steve...I like numbers too! Although maybe not quite as much ad you do!

SinceI don't have the same car as yours (in terms of mods), I need to spend more time fantasizing about it!!!

 

[jedhead]

Peak horsepower and torque numbers are fun to follow. However real world performance is gained by the area under those curves. The GEN1/2 SHO performed greater than expected because of the large area under those curves and that the engine will output 80 - 90 percent of peak power over 4000 rpms.
The Spectre intake on my STS-V didn't increase my peak power by much, but between 3000 to 5200 rpm I gained an average of 44whp and 36wft-lbs of torque making the car feel much stronger than the gain in peak power numbers would seem to indicate.
All the performance mods I did on my GEN1 was to widen the torque band as much as I could without killing low rpm torque.

Bob

 

[steve142857]

Peak horsepower and torque numbers are fun to follow. However real world performance is gained by the area under those curves. The GEN1/2 SHO performed greater than expected because of the large area under those curves and that the engine will output 80 - 90 percent of peak power over 4000 rpms.
The Spectre intake on my STS-V didn't increase my peak power by much, but between 3000 to 5200 rpm I gained an average of 44whp and 36wft-lbs of torque making the car feel much stronger than the gain in peak power numbers would seem to indicate.
All the performance mods I did on my GEN1 was to widen the torque band as much as I could without killing low rpm torque.

Bob

Well said Bob, that is exactly the idea and this is what the stage 4+ from Livernois is doing... That is why with current mods I can pass in front of other cars that have a lot of power and less weight but which power is only available after certain rpm or with a power curve with a big peak instead of flat. I am looking forward to get the gauges project from Crash to see the boost level throughout acceleration etc.

 

[SHO U UP]

Thanks for the warning... We all know that we are taking risks when modifying our car, but I believe that Livernois is going progressively in looking to enhance theperformance of the Ecoboost engines. When I say that I have the equivalent of 450hp/tq, it might be in fact more 425 according to a dyno. But I believe that the direct injection, the twin small turbos, the availability of torque at low rpm and to be able to keep all the power along the curve makes it the equivalent of a 450hp «normal» car... But I think my car is actually 15-20% more powerful than stock. My ET time on 1/4 mile went from 13.5 stock to 12.9 modded, which suggests rule of thumb) a 60hp increase and my 0-60 went from 5.0 to 4.3, which could translate in about 70lbs of torque more...
But all-in, until I would have to pay an actual repair bill, I think it is all worth it... I am enjoying this car like no others and it is night and day from driving it stock, which was already fast and luxurous, but no where near the fun to drive once modded. I actually think I am driving the SHO the way it should have come out of the factory... and probably everyone here that is running Livernois' tunes will agree...
So, SHO U UP, why don't you stat with LMS stage 2? It has been out there for more than a year and nobody ever had any troubles with it and that is at least 100 drivers...Enjoy!
Steve

I've had issues with the motor with NO tune on it. Mis-firing, check engine light came and went, then stayed on. So off to the dealer for a nearly a week while they inspected it. 6 new plugs and 6 new injectors. That's the reason why I haven't tuned it. If the same issue were to raise it's ugly head again, I may not be so lucky. But believe me, I am really debating doing a tune still. Kudos on your hp numbers though nonetheless.

I think the engine is a little more stout than you give it credit for.....

It's what's inside the engine Darreli I'm concerned about. IMO, powdered rods is a less expensive route to take. Yes, it gets the job done, but for how long once the mods take over? Then, there's the transmission. Ford's reputation on the Taurus auto transmissions have always been a weak link. New platform, new powerplants, new problems. Just the way it goes unfortunately with new models and powertrains.

With what you have done to yours, I congratulate you and wish you all the best. I enjoy reading and seeing what new things you have done and how others are "chasing" you down. It makes me want to mod the **** out of mine and I hope you prove me wrong over this stout little engine. Because when you do, I'll be "chasing" you down as well.

 

[EcoBrick Bob]

I have a friend on the G8 Forums that was a Ford contract employee (metallurgical engineer) on the 3.5 EcoBoost engine during development. Told me that they tried to Boost the 3.7 L version. When pushed to the limit, they would blow up in about 100 mi. While he didn't go into why, my guess is that the stroke (rods) was the issue.

The big question is not how much HP we are producing, but how much TORQUE. The EB engine in the F-150 puts out considerably more torque, which leads me to believe that the engine is not the weakest link....

I always LOG my WOT runs and Torrie and I review them for abnormalities when we are testing tunes. Without a better fuel delivery system, there is not much else in there to capture. That's why Darreli is running 100% Meth.