94 Wont Start PLEASE Help! Got Fuel??

[pjb84]

I drove my SHO all day then stopped for about 10 mins to get something to eat. Came outside and it would turn over but no start.

1. I checked the fuel pump shutoff switch...not the problem.
2. I hear the fuel pump kicking on when turning the key.
3. There is over a 3/8 tank of gas in it.

I let the car sit for about 15 mins, turned it over then it started...sounded a little rough but ran. Started to take off and then it died about 30 seconds later.

Came back 2.5 hrs later and it started right back up and idled nice. I didnt want to chance it so /I had it towed home.

When I got home it also started right up fine, now its just chilling in the garage and I dont dare to drive it anywhere.

There is fuel coming from the "purge valve" (correct name?) on the fuel rail when the car does run. So that means its getting fuel...right?

Could it be a fuel filter? Fuel pump?

I looked at the fuel filter and its pretty rusted so its probably old.

What do you guys think it is? Should I just swap out the filter and try it out?

Thanks guys. I LOVE my SHO and cant wait to get it running in tip top shape again! Its my DD!!

-Peter

 

[TwistedD85]

Probably need a filter anyways, it's cheap and it can't hurt so I'd say do it. When you say fuel comes out of the schrader valve while it's running is it just leaking out, a small squirt, or a strong spray? Should be strong, anything else and that should be an indication of low fuel pressure. If you replace the filter and it still persists it has to be something else further up the line, injectors and regulator is all there is left, as far as I know. Someone else should chime in soon and will probably have a better idea of what's wrong.

 

[pjb84]

Probably need a filter anyways, it's cheap and it can't hurt so I'd say do it. When you say fuel comes out of the schrader valve while it's running is it just leaking out, a small squirt, or a strong spray? Should be strong, anything else and that should be an indication of low fuel pressure. If you replace the filter and it still persists it has to be something else further up the line, injectors and regulator is all there is left, as far as I know. Someone else should chime in soon and will probably have a better idea of what's wrong.

No its not leaking out. It only sprays out when I push the valve. It came out in a pretty good stream...shot up to the popped hood and all over my arm lol

 

[beaudeen]

Just went through that with my car...as time goes on, it'll take a longer cool-down period to start back up..I made 1 stop and came back to start the car...no go for 6 hours..left it over night and she started right up...drove it home and it hiccuped with a check engine light..tack went to zero but kept running...time for a front 60k..check the codes, I bet you have a 211 in there..crank position sensor..!!

 

[TwistedD85]

No its not leaking out. It only sprays out when I push the valve. It came out in a pretty good stream...shot up to the popped hood and all over my arm lol

Well I mean when you opened the valve did it just leak out a little or do that But yeah, not a fuel pressure problem, I'd do what they said Codes can help alot when trying to diagnose, especially on a forum.

 

[hawkeye18]

Hint: Fuel is not your problem. Stop thinking it's fuel.

What you describe sounds like a crank sensor failure, compounded by a possible cam sensor failure.

Please check your codes. Again: Fuel is NOT YOUR PROBLEM.

 

[pjb84]

Is there anyway to check the codes myself or do I need to take it to the shop to have them hook up the diagnostic tool?

 

[hawkeye18]

*sigh*

http://wiki.wikisho.com/wiki/EEC_Self_Test_Procedure

 

[pjb84]

*sigh*

http://wiki.wikisho.com/wiki/EEC_Self_Test_Procedure

Thank you lol

So you just connect the hanging STI terminal to the Signal return pin terminal with a wire and then follow the procedures?

Is this what "Jumper the STI pin and the Signal Return pin" means?

Thank you.

 

[hawkeye18]

You got it! This is the oft-mentioned "paperclip method". If you use an insulated paperclip, please make sure to remove the insulation from both ends .

FWIW, Advance Auto Parts (AAP) sells an EEC-IV tester by Innova for about $25. I keep it in the glovebox at all times for quick and speedy code reading; it reads the codes out to you so you don't have to decipher the dashes.

If you do have trouble deciphering the blinking CEL output, just post the entire sequence (two blinks, break, one blink, break, four blinks, long break), etc. and we'll do our best to decipher them for you.

 

[pjb84]

You got it! This is the oft-mentioned "paperclip method". If you use an insulated paperclip, please make sure to remove the insulation from both ends .

FWIW, Advance Auto Parts (AAP) sells an EEC-IV tester by Innova for about $25. I keep it in the glovebox at all times for quick and speedy code reading; it reads the codes out to you so you don't have to decipher the dashes.

If you do have trouble deciphering the blinking CEL output, just post the entire sequence (two blinks, break, one blink, break, four blinks, long break), etc. and we'll do our best to decipher them for you.

Thank you very much. I am going to go check it now.

 

[pjb84]

ok Ive done all three tests and I got them on video. I am uploading now to my youtube page and will post them here in a few.

 

[pjb84]

Here are the videos I just took. I have no idea how to read these lights.

(sorry, the video editor in me had to add intro music lol)

KOEO Test (engine off)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC9AxnQW8lk

KOER Test (engine on, goose test)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6GmiRv7MQo

THANKS for your help guys! I appreciate it!

 

[shonuffmine]

i see a 211 code ,that usually means crank position sensor has taken a ****,is your water pump leaking any,and did the car hickup or cut out for a second or two,that os the usual signs of a cps going south.it will run n cut out intermitantly then finaly leave ya for dead on the side of the road also where in maine are youy .i,m in dover-foxcroft

 

[pjb84]

i see a 211 code ,that usually means crank position sensor has taken a ****,is your water pump leaking any,and did the car hickup or cut out for a second or two,that os the usual signs of a cps going south.it will run n cut out intermitantly then finaly leave ya for dead on the side of the road also where in maine are youy .i,m in dover-foxcroft

Im not sure if my water pump is leaking. Ive never had to replace one so I am going to have to do some research on here to find out how I can tell if its leaking.

The car didnt hickup or sputter at all when it left me stranded in the parking lot. I just came out and it wouldnt start.

Today it starts up fine and runs smooth but I dont dare to take it down the road...dont want to get stranded again lol

I am in Limington Maine...about 30 mins north of Portland.


How do you count the codes? Do you just count the number of blinks plus number of blinks to get a 3 digit number?

 

[TwistedD85]

211 will be *flash* *flash* -pause- *flash* -pause- *flash* and then it'll pause a while longer and start over if that's your only code. Or if you have more it'll give you those in the same way and then repeat them until you switch the car off.

And in most cases a bad waterpump will leak through a weep hole ( the hole near the base of the snout ). You won't be able to see it directly but you'll see it leaking onto other things below it or at the very least the ground.

 

[pjb84]

211 will be *flash* *flash* -pause- *flash* -pause- *flash* and then it'll pause a while longer and start over if that's your only code. Or if you have more it'll give you those in the same way and then repeat them until you switch the car off.

And in most cases a bad waterpump will leak through a weep hole ( the hole near the base of the snout ). You won't be able to see it directly but you'll see it leaking onto other things below it or at the very least the ground.

hmmm would this leak onto the exhaust piping after the cats?

 

[TwistedD85]

Maybe, I can't be totally sure without looking, I'm sure someone else remembers, but I believe it's possible, water/coolant can take a few routes, most of which seem to pass over/behind/around your CPS.

 

[hawkeye18]

OK, here are your codes decipered:

KOEO:

(rapid code sequence for STAR-II tester)
(break)
1-1-1
(break)
1-1-1 (each code is repeated twice in sequence: 111 means all tests pass.)
(long break)
1 (this is the flash that breaks up the active codes and stored codes sections, thus the long break)
(long break)
2-1-1 (PIP circuit failure.) (This is the crank sensor that I was talking about earlier.)
3-3-6 (Insufficient EGR flow.) (Your EGR passage in your intake is likely clogged with crud; search EGR clog on the forum for ways to clear this.)
5-4-2 (Fuel pump circuit open, EEC processor to motor ground.)(If the car stalled, even if it's an ATX, this code gets thrown. Troubleshoot this code only if all other codes are resolved and this still comes up. Otherwise don't worry about it.)
6-3-4 (MLP sensor voltage out of Self-Test range.) (This is the switch of many names - Manual Lever Positioning sensor (MLP), Neutral Safety Switch (NSS, this is what the parts stores call it), Transmission Range Sensor (TRS)... it's a large sensor that tells the EEC where your shift lever is. Something isn't right with it. Is it plugged in?)

KOER:

(no stored codes during KOER, so a rapid flash for STAR-II tester and then right into codes it goes)
116 (ECT sensor is out of Self-Test.) (Did you let the car warm up all the way to operating temperature? If you didn't, that's why you got this code. If you let the car idle for ~10 minutes, then the sensor is bad.)
632 (Transmission Control Switch circuit did not change states during KOER self-test.) (You forgot to hit the OD button, didn't you? )

Basically what this all tells me is that you have a failing crank sensor (it will only get worse until it dies completely), a blocked EGR passage and a bad MLPS.

I would add that for not knowing anything about the testing procedures, you handled it remarkably well. Most people don't even remember to turn the steering wheel, and most can't figure out the cylinder balance test!

So. The MLPS is fairly easy to replace; you'll need a 13mm deepwell socket and either an 8 or 10mm socket - I've found that removing the top half of the airbox and the TB hose makes access much easier. Just look down at the rear driver's side of the top of the transmission housing and you'll see it (it's plastic) with a linkage heading towards the firewall. Remove the nut that holds the linkage on it, then remove the two bolts on either side.

Installation is a little trickier; you have to align it. It can be done with one person, but is easier with two. If you only have yourself, this is what you do - either install it during daytime and wait, or install it at night with a flashlight. Then, back up to a wall. What you're trying to do is get the reverse lights to turn on just as you shift into reverse from either direction, and for them to turn off just as you shift out of reverse. You'll notice that the new sensor has long holes in it for adjustment; you want to loosen the two bolts that go through these and rotate it as necessary for that to happen. This does require a fair bit of spatial orientation as you have to imagine how moving the linkage affects the switch (when the inside is rotated all the way CCW it's in park, etc.). This switch controls current to the reverse lights, so it's foolproof, if somewhat tricky.

So, you'll have to shift through reverse in both directions, and if it's off the lights won't come on when you get into reverse from one direction. If they don't come on from Park, the switch needs to be rotated CCW. If they won't come on from Drive, it needs to be rotated CW. Hope this makes sense.

I am assuming you have an ATX; if you have an MTX and are getting a 632 then you got some major issues!

As far as the crank sensor goes, there is a pretty healthy debate going on about failure modes and causes, but I believe (others don't) that water dripping from the weep hole of the water pump (which it is designed to do as a pressure relief as seals wear out) drips right onto the crank sensor and causes it to short internally over time.

Replacing the crank seal and water pump is known as a lower 60K (the upper half is adjusting valve lash and replacing valve cover gaskets), and the best walk-through for this available is here. Go there, read up (it says for MTXs, but the ATXs are covered as well) and read everything else on the site as well; it is chock full of useful knowledge.

I don't ordinarily go this in-depth for people, but you really impressed me picking up pulling codes so fast and helping me help you (with the videos) that I felt rather obligated . Hope this helps!

 

[pjb84]

OK, here are your codes decipered:

KOEO:

(rapid code sequence for STAR-II tester)
(break)
1-1-1
(break)
1-1-1 (each code is repeated twice in sequence: 111 means all tests pass.)
(long break)
1 (this is the flash that breaks up the active codes and stored codes sections, thus the long break)
(long break)
2-1-1 (PIP circuit failure.) (This is the crank sensor that I was talking about earlier.)
3-3-6 (Insufficient EGR flow.) (Your EGR passage in your intake is likely clogged with crud; search EGR clog on the forum for ways to clear this.)
5-4-2 (Fuel pump circuit open, EEC processor to motor ground.)(If the car stalled, even if it's an ATX, this code gets thrown. Troubleshoot this code only if all other codes are resolved and this still comes up. Otherwise don't worry about it.)
6-3-4 (MLP sensor voltage out of Self-Test range.) (This is the switch of many names - Manual Lever Positioning sensor (MLP), Neutral Safety Switch (NSS, this is what the parts stores call it), Transmission Range Sensor (TRS)... it's a large sensor that tells the EEC where your shift lever is. Something isn't right with it. Is it plugged in?)

KOER:

(no stored codes during KOER, so a rapid flash for STAR-II tester and then right into codes it goes)
116 (ECT sensor is out of Self-Test.) (Did you let the car warm up all the way to operating temperature? If you didn't, that's why you got this code. If you let the car idle for ~10 minutes, then the sensor is bad.)
632 (Transmission Control Switch circuit did not change states during KOER self-test.) (You forgot to hit the OD button, didn't you? )

Basically what this all tells me is that you have a failing crank sensor (it will only get worse until it dies completely), a blocked EGR passage and a bad MLPS.

I would add that for not knowing anything about the testing procedures, you handled it remarkably well. Most people don't even remember to turn the steering wheel, and most can't figure out the cylinder balance test!

So. The MLPS is fairly easy to replace; you'll need a 13mm deepwell socket and either an 8 or 10mm socket - I've found that removing the top half of the airbox and the TB hose makes access much easier. Just look down at the rear driver's side of the top of the transmission housing and you'll see it (it's plastic) with a linkage heading towards the firewall. Remove the nut that holds the linkage on it, then remove the two bolts on either side.

Installation is a little trickier; you have to align it. It can be done with one person, but is easier with two. If you only have yourself, this is what you do - either install it during daytime and wait, or install it at night with a flashlight. Then, back up to a wall. What you're trying to do is get the reverse lights to turn on just as you shift into reverse from either direction, and for them to turn off just as you shift out of reverse. You'll notice that the new sensor has long holes in it for adjustment; you want to loosen the two bolts that go through these and rotate it as necessary for that to happen. This does require a fair bit of spatial orientation as you have to imagine how moving the linkage affects the switch (when the inside is rotated all the way CCW it's in park, etc.). This switch controls current to the reverse lights, so it's foolproof, if somewhat tricky.

So, you'll have to shift through reverse in both directions, and if it's off the lights won't come on when you get into reverse from one direction. If they don't come on from Park, the switch needs to be rotated CCW. If they won't come on from Drive, it needs to be rotated CW. Hope this makes sense.

I am assuming you have an ATX; if you have an MTX and are getting a 632 then you got some major issues!

As far as the crank sensor goes, there is a pretty healthy debate going on about failure modes and causes, but I believe (others don't) that water dripping from the weep hole of the water pump (which it is designed to do as a pressure relief as seals wear out) drips right onto the crank sensor and causes it to short internally over time.

Replacing the crank seal and water pump is known as a lower 60K (the upper half is adjusting valve lash and replacing valve cover gaskets), and the best walk-through for this available is here. Go there, read up (it says for MTXs, but the ATXs are covered as well) and read everything else on the site as well; it is chock full of useful knowledge.

I don't ordinarily go this in-depth for people, but you really impressed me picking up pulling codes so fast and helping me help you (with the videos) that I felt rather obligated . Hope this helps!

Wow, thank you very much.

Where do you live? Seriously I owe you a beer lol or lunch.

I understand everything you are saying. Thanks for being so thorough.

I will do some research about how to unclog the EGR and read up on the 60K.

Also, my overdrive switch doesnt work. I was thinking I had a broken wire under the center console judging by what I read on another thread here. I wonder if that has something to do with it? Still need to get around to that.

As far as the KOER test... I let the car warm up for about 5-7 mins....I guess I didnt go long enough.

Again, thank you. Really. :woo-hoo: