6-speed SHO???

[JSIL1]

I was talking to a friend who was intrested in my SHO and was curious why I didn't opt for the 5-speed transmission. I told him that this Generation didn't have the option. He told me to save some money and put one in. THen there was lots of random ideas until a semi-plausable one surfaced.
Would it be possible to matte a 6-speed Tranny of another FWD car? sure given enough money and time I believe anything is possible. BUT the transmission would have to be fairly strong this blew away the initial thought that A Celecia 6sp could work in the SHO. Personally nothing that is powered by a 4cyl will touch the car.
After a debate as to why we came upon the tranny from a 2004 maxima. I though well it is a 255hp 3.5L 6cyl. It sounds good to me, Except for the fact that I have no idea how to go about even starting to have movement on the subject.

This is were i run in to my first of many problems

Is there an ability to fit the Maxima's 6sp into the SHO, aside from reprograming the comp, running the clutch and shifter and all the other things I dont even know exist.

Whether or not it would require massive abounts of work, which I assume it would, in the end does anyone think that it would be worth it.

Finally, for the time being, Is there anyone who knows the SHO enging/tranny setup along with the 04 Maxima's setup that thinks it could be done?

 

[nothingtoseehere]

You are looking at something that may not bolt right up. The SHO MTX will bolt up to the Gen III block IIRC. Your big concerns are computer, running shofter rods, clutch linkage, center console re-designing, subframe tweaking and trans mount fabricating to name the basics.

 

[wild01ride]

RCADDELL:
You are looking at something that may not bolt right up. The SHO MTX will bolt up to the Gen III block IIRC. Your big concerns are computer, running shofter rods, clutch linkage, center console re-designing, subframe tweaking and trans mount fabricating to name the basics.

If this is the case, I can't imagine why no one has taken the plunge and done it yet. I mean, we've got superchargers on GenIII's, coding in an MTX based PCM should be within similar reach. If anything, the MTX should require less PCM input than the AX4N.
I would love to see someone do this. I would be more than willing to do the fabrication end of it to mine, but I don't know anybody in the programming market who could handle the task of tweaking the PCM.
Somebody, drop in an MTX- it's the final frontier in perfecting the GenIII!

 

[cartfan76]

I think the tranny to use if it were to be done would be the MT-75 from the SVT Contour. A good friend of mine that works at Ford said there has been a revised version of it produced that's stronger internally than the original stock production units. The physical PITA's will be getting an adapter plate (for everything to mate up), custom half-shafts, quaife, getting the interior bits working and to fit. After that is the PCM problem. I'm pretty sure Apten claimed they could get all the ATX codes out of it...

 

[Chris Benvie]

cartfan76:
I think the tranny to use if it were to be done would be the MT-75 from the SVT Contour. A good friend of mine that works at Ford said there has been a revised version of it produced that's stronger internally than the original stock production units. The physical PITA's will be getting an adapter plate (for everything to mate up), custom half-shafts, quaife, getting the interior bits working and to fit. After that is the PCM problem. I'm pretty sure Apten claimed they could get all the ATX codes out of it...

This would be a good idea, but the problem is the SVT contour is a weak starting point, if you're going to do it, and spend all the money, you might as well do something custom-fab thats bulletproof, and the money spent on software would be astronomical.

just my .02

 

[wild01ride]

First:
The "software" would certainly not be astronomical. Any reputable company that does ECU work should be familiar with all of the control functions that exist on the ATX. Adjusting the ATX input/output parameters is a typical part of a chip-engineering process. The problem, however, would become that you would need to work closely with the programmer because, obviously, they do not have a bench vehicle to test parameter adjustments on. This means that you would need to be on the really good side of your local chip-burning whiz!

Second:
The Contour MTX shouldn't require an adapter plate. The 3.4L block is based off of the 2.5L duratec block. The problem here would be achieving proper alignment of the axles with the front knuckles, not to mention hoping or finding halfshafts that will mate to the Contour tranny on one end and to the SHO knuckles on the other.

I'd still be up for the project though (not quite sure what I'd be driving in the meantime though!)

 

[SonicRiot]

I am interested in a genIII as well, but I want a stick. What about the Acura 6-speeds if you want a 6 spd?

Also, why is it such a big deal to program the computer for a MTX? I know it isn't a matter of just unpluging some wires, but what exactly is involved?

Maybe we should all just wait for the Ford-built MG 4 door sedan with a V8 and 6spd...

 

[Zap]

I have been pondering this idea over quite some time. I would love to own a rare Gen III MTX, and would not hesitate to dive into the project if I had more money. burnout After all this clutch job type work I've been doing, this couldn't be terribly bad. shrug To be honest, if the Gen II MTX bolts on, and a decent clutch setup is available for it (SHONut package), and a mount, shifter, and clutch can be fairly easily fabricated or modded to fit (if properly designed using the data and measurements from the Gen III), then the only leftovers would be electronic. I'm willing (and fairly capable) to attend to the detail and possible hangups of a prototype setup such as this. The only thing that would really be necessary is to install a chip to override the normal computer operation. This could be accomplished by building a module that informs the computer of normal readings from ATX sensors, OR just removing the ATX code in the first place and mirroring how an OBD-II MTX computer works, but substituting the engine control data for the V8 SHO engine. I don't know a whole lot about how the Ford computers work, but I have the ability to burn EPROMS and I have a base knowledge of computer coding, and a lot of willingness to experiment and learn! For that matter, I'd love to dive into the specifics of the GenII computers, since I have domain over two of them! wink In addition to that, I could probably find a fairly cheap V8, in good condition, with a blown ATX for the project. beer


Addition: I almost forgot... how the wheelbase and halfshafts compare between the two generations may be cause for some modifications too, but that shouldn't be terrible either. I would think a hybrid set of MTX/GenIII halfshafts could possibly be produced by combining the CV joints from the MTX with the shafts and wheel CV joints from the GenIII, if the specs can go together. If not, then back to the drawing board for that! It would obviously affect the tranny mount, its shape, and positioning. The shifter would be made based on the Gen III's console and where the shafts and engine force the tranny to go, being one of the last mechanical pieces of the puzzle.

<small>[ February 17, 2004, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: Zap ]</small>

 

[wild01ride]

Right on! I say we both come up with a computer guy (we're both close enough to Dearborn!) and make something happen. At least there are enough people out there who make parts to put together a bulletproff tranny at a reasonable cost. My best guess would be that the Gen II MTX uses a cable shifter. If that's the case, any amateur welder could fab a bracket for the MTX shifter into the Gen III console (without losing any cleanliness). On the same note, a clutch mount could easily be had (although I admit that the clutch business fore of the firewall would take some work to straighten out- it's already tight in there!)

Beyond that, it's a matter of our computer whiz putting together the bulk of the challenge!

(BTW, I wouldn't even consider looking into the computer workings of a GenII for this project- there is a huge difference in control logic between the OBD I and II computer systems alone, not to mention the Ford EEC systems)

 

[Ian Macoomb]

If you're going to go to all the trouble of putting a manual tranny in the car why not put a good one in it? One that won't strip third gear. There's got to be something that will work.

While you're at it. Put a different knuckle on it with a different bolt pattern so there's better options for aftermarket wheels.

 

[Zap]

I'm only speaking for myself here, but the reason for picking the MTX-IV is that it would be a fairly reliable tranny (if it had a quaife) and the only problem with the setup would be after a significant amount of mods were done to increase the HP/Tq. The MTX-IVs are not an extremely expensive tranny and can be fairly readily found, and you could even go with a non-quaifed one for starters. Also take into account gear ratios. The ATX trannies for the Gen II and Gen III have the SAME gear ratio, therefore, it would appear that the MTX-IV should have a halfway decent gear ratio to go along with the V8, if it works so well with the V6. To get this close of a match, you would spend some big $$$ having a tranny custom built. If you can find another decent tranny for the price of the MTX-IV that will come as close to what would have been used if the V8 was offered with a MTX, then by all means, I'm interested to hear about it! A 6-speed would certainly rock, but the cost would be significantly more.

As far as the MTX-IV shifter, all the Gen II cars came with a rod shifter, but some Gen I cars were indeed cable shifted. I would think if you're going to go to all the trouble to build one of these, that you should just custom fab a set of rods for the shifter, if it is functionally possible. The cable shifter could certainly be used as a base starting point, however. How the exhaust is routed may make an impact on this, too.

AFAIK, the cable is the only part of the clutch pedal that would extend past the firewall, and knowing Ford, the pedals in the car are probably shared with more than one style car. Thus, find another car with identical pedals but MTX offered, get the pedal and hardware (hopefully it has the cable adjustment, to work nicely with the MTX-IV) and install. A clutch cable may need to be modified in order to be the proper length.

Depending on how the knuckle situation works, it may or may not be worthwhile to change the knuckles. The problem with changing them, then would require rear wheel modifications, as well. However, depending on the halfshafts used, it may be more advantageous to find another style of knuckle.

I think I am going to start reading up on OBD II computers and programming. I believe that SHONut and Midwest SHO have some type of computer tuner that REPLACES the computer code vs overriding it with a chip in the diagnostic port. I would prefer a permanent solution, as I think that due to the extensive changes made to the software, that it would be best to prevent any problems.

Finally, I am seriously interested in taking a look at the mechanics of this stuff. The problem is I have no access to a Gen III, and even the Ford shop manual, as far as I know, doesn't have the specs on items such as halfshafts, wheelbase, distances between places, subframe diagrams, etc. If I had this information, I could start drafting up plans for things. Another random question would be if the MTX flywheel will bolt right up to the V8, or if it would require other modifications. I think if one would start with a few givens (using MTX-IV, rod shifter) that the next logical step after making sure the flywheel fits and the tranny mates OK would be designing a tranny mount, and then halfshafts/drivetrain. At that point, then the software would become an issue. If you could build a dummy module for the ATX computer and some type of temporary clutch mechanism, it may be possible to do a test run in 1st gear to see if the setup is feasable (before it tells it to shift and probably kills the engine.) burnout Once you had everything verified, then I would say it would be time to go ahead and fab the shifter and clutch pedal setup based on a working system, and then do the major overhaul on the computer software (unless that part of the process is not terribly complicated). The reason I look at it this way, is that it isn't worth spending more time and money to build a complete setup and modify the car and then find out it won't work the way you thought it would, only to have to pick a different tranny/drivetrain/etc and start from scratch after investing all that money. It seems like there should be a few feasable tests that could be done to verify that everything is cool, before proceeding to design/modify/build the rest of the setup! It also goes without saying that careful design and attention to detail would help prevent such problems, too.

Hope I haven't yapped too much! rofl

 

[venom]

I see we are in the same region. I have two Gen III's. This MTX thing has been on my list for when either of our cars pukes an ATX (both have about 80K on them).

What little research I have done is:
1) MTX IV from a Gen I/II will NOT bolt up.
2) Countour SVT or even regualr contour 5 speed will bolt up but is a weak tranny for the job.
3) The countour tranny from what I understand usually grenades the diff.
4) Quaife's for those countour Trannies are CHEAP (like $500)
5) The other option is use a tranny off of another duratec based block. Besides the countour the only other vehicle I know of that can be gotten as a stick and that has a Duratec block based motor you will be looking overseas at Ford of Europe stuff, if my sources are correct that MTX is a six speed and is a bit tougher than the aforementioned countour unit.

Again I have been waiting for one of my Gen III's to puke an ATX so that I could make a lifelong project out of this.. The wife would **** me, but it would be all kinds of fun assuming I could get it put togehter.

As far as PCM issues... There are other cars that are V8's that are sticks.. It might be easiest to grab the computer and harness off of say a Mustang cobra that has coil on plug ignition and IMRC and wire that all up, then get that PCM tuned for the SHO's V8.

Zap:
I'm only speaking for myself here, but the reason for picking the MTX-IV is that it would be a fairly reliable tranny (if it had a quaife) and the only problem with the setup would be after a significant amount of mods were done to increase the HP/Tq. The MTX-IVs are not an extremely expensive tranny and can be fairly readily found, and you could even go with a non-quaifed one for starters. Also take into account gear ratios. The ATX trannies for the Gen II and Gen III have the SAME gear ratio, therefore, it would appear that the MTX-IV should have a halfway decent gear ratio to go along with the V8, if it works so well with the V6. To get this close of a match, you would spend some big $$$ having a tranny custom built. If you can find another decent tranny for the price of the MTX-IV that will come as close to what would have been used if the V8 was offered with a MTX, then by all means, I'm interested to hear about it! A 6-speed would certainly rock, but the cost would be significantly more.

Hope I haven't yapped too much! rofl

 

[Zap]

Wow, what a coincidence... I don't usually see too many folks from Ohio. I really like your idea about the V8 MTX computer. That seems to make the most sense, as far as a viable solution to the computer problem. If the Contour tranny with a Quaife could withstand the HP/Tq of the SHO, then I don't see a problem with using that. Only time (and money, unfortunately) will tell what will work and what won't. Hopefully we will find out!

 

[cartfan76]

Yes...the production Contour tranny's are weak...but a reliable source has informed me that any replacement tranny for that car that was built after they quit making the contour is stronger (how much is still unknown though). As far as the PCM...I would bank on just letting Apten try and figure out removing the ATX codes and checks and being done with it. I do know one thing though...I'll let one of you guys get a drivable conversion done first... thumb

 

[venom]

We own 3 vehicles and have two drivers (for 5 years until my oldest hits that magic number). Seeing as how two of those cars are Gen III's I tend to think it is quite likely that one will puke out an ATX in the next 4 years or so, which would still give me a year to get it working. course now that I have said that both ATX's will still be running strong at 150K knowing my luck... Either that or one will puke tomorrow

cartfan76:
Yes...the production Contour tranny's are weak...but a reliable source has informed me that any replacement tranny for that car that was built after they quit making the contour is stronger (how much is still unknown though). As far as the PCM...I would bank on just letting Apten try and figure out removing the ATX codes and checks and being done with it. I do know one thing though...I'll let one of you guys get a drivable conversion done first... thumb

 

[venom]

Course now that I reread my post knowing my luck both cars will puke their ATX. Luckily one isn't running now so at least it's tranny can't puke.

venom:
We own 3 vehicles and have two drivers (for 5 years until my oldest hits that magic number). Seeing as how two of those cars are Gen III's I tend to think it is quite likely that one will puke out an ATX in the next 4 years or so, which would still give me a year to get it working. course now that I have said that both ATX's will still be running strong at 150K knowing my luck... Either that or one will puke tomorrow

cartfan76:
Yes...the production Contour tranny's are weak...but a reliable source has informed me that any replacement tranny for that car that was built after they quit making the contour is stronger (how much is still unknown though). As far as the PCM...I would bank on just letting Apten try and figure out removing the ATX codes and checks and being done with it. I do know one thing though...I'll let one of you guys get a drivable conversion done first... thumb

 

[XLSuruaT]

Dont quote me, but I think I remember reading a while ago that Arkansho(Carter) had taken measurements and something just wasnt fitting right, iirc. Might want to ask him, because Im pretty sure he did some research on this.

 

[SHODWN]

Carter has done nothing with this..

Wild, Send me your car and give me about a 7 month time frame and Ill get one installed, with axels and one that shifts for you.. you do your own computer work.

Correction onyour Contour Source the problem was solved in the MY00 Contours.

anything can be done, depends on if you have the want and the cash to pay for it. Untill these cars can be bought in good shape for 1000.00 I dont see anyone doing it.

 

[Zap]

Kirk,

What transmission would you use, and what do you estimate the cost would be in the end for the various fabbed parts and such? I'm curious now....

 

[jelloslug]

I don't know much about 3rd gen so I may be out in left field but I just saw this post and had an idea. Not too long ago there was talk of using 3rd gen control arms on a 1st/2nd gen car. Someone mention that the subframe from a 3rd gen car would bolt up to a 1st/2nd gen body. If this info is correct could you not take a 1st/2nd gen MTX subframe, do the modification for the MTX-IV to bolt up to the V8 and modify the subframe to accept the V8. You then could just the 1st/2nd gen front lower control arms and knuckles so the stock MTX axles would work. What does anyone think?