1995 Sho Codes

[Reinovator]

HELP!
It did it again wont start
I pulled codes and this is the result 111, 111, 1, 172, 173, 172,173.
I did shoot in some Starting fluid, three times. Caught a little the first time a little more the second and caught the third but had to keep the Throttle way open not full but wide and it smoothed out. It ran fine, good power went around the block and I put it in the driveway. went and picked up my kids from school in my Panel truck didn't trust the SHO. came home and it wont start again, that's when I pulled codes KOEO.

 

[rubydist]

your codes are still both rich and lean on right (rear) bank. nothing that would cause no-start situation unless flooding terribly, which it could be from your description of how you got it going again.

the bad news is that its the rear bank, because the next thing I would do when it does not start is to pull out all three plugs and inspect to see if one or more are soaked in gas or not.

 

[Reinovator]

your codes are still both rich and lean on right (rear) bank. nothing that would cause no-start situation unless flooding terribly, which it could be from your description of how you got it going again.

the bad news is that its the rear bank, because the next thing I would do when it does not start is to pull out all three plugs and inspect to see if one or more are soaked in gas or not.

Thanks I will try this in the Morning. Yeck rear bank plugs at least I'm tall.

 

[Reinovator]

your codes are still both rich and lean on right (rear) bank. nothing that would cause no-start situation unless flooding terribly, which it could be from your description of how you got it going again.

the bad news is that its the rear bank, because the next thing I would do when it does not start is to pull out all three plugs and inspect to see if one or more are soaked in gas or not.

Ok it died again this morning pulling into drive way. low rpms coasting in and died.
Pulled right or rear plugs.
Dry a little carbon on outer area but none on electrode or anode.
I used starting fluid and it restarted idled for about 10 min and died again .
repeated Starting fluid and ran fine.

 

[rubydist]

ok, now when it dies (and wont restart) is there fuel pressure?

 

[Reinovator]

ok, now when it dies (and wont restart) is there fuel pressure?

Ok It it finally did it again I put on about 40 miles one time it died, and I was in traffic so I did the Starting fluid method I discussed earlier and it started up fine an I went on my way To day this method would not work I released the very light pressure and tried again. Still no start, my fuel gauge had just started to to show the little fuel pump symbol. I had my son turn the key off and back on while I was releasing pressure, yes I smell like gas.and it still would not start I sprayed one more long shot of starting fluid and it kicked a little with clicking noises. and died again. One more shot of starting fluid and it started smoothly. this time. I drove to the fuel station and it died again. three more shots of starting fluid and it cranked up. but it felt a little sluggish but ran ok. I passed a friend and stopped to say hello, Nice to live in a small town, in the middle of the road. let it idle, keeping an eye on the tac. said our good buy's punched it and she acted like a SHO again.

Could this be a combination of fuel and electrical issues. IE the fuel pressure buy pass. and or coil pack. (I'm guessing here) and or dirty injectors. or may be Bad vacuum, intake gaskets. I'm a little stumped here. it does sputter with out a load on the engine at 4k RPMS.
on a side note, after this maybe another issue entirely, bit after it warms up the transmission ***** back a forth between 3rd and forth a 35 mph and at 55mph these are constant speeds 15hundred rpm and 22hundred rpms the only constant is that I'm trying to keep a consistent speed it's fine at 40mph or at 65mph.

Thanks again in advance.

 

[rubydist]

Man, I wish people could write actual sentences... It helps us so much if we can actually understand what is going on.

So, when you pressed the schrader valve on the fuel rail fuel sprayed out? or not?

What are the codes now?

 

[Reinovator]

Man, I wish people could write actual sentences... It helps us so much if we can actually understand what is going on.

So, when you pressed the schrader valve on the fuel rail fuel sprayed out? or not?

What are the codes now?

I am So SORRY. I will try to do better.
I was Interrupted four times, writing that, along with poor grammer skills
When it died the, the last time. I depressed the 'Schrader valve and just a trickle, enough to go over the top of the valve orifice.
after that I attempted several times without depressing the valve to start it using Starting fluid.

I let it sit for a minute or two and I thought that the gas gauge may be reading in correctly.
So I had my son cycle the ignition switch twice and I depressed the schrader valve on the second time, and was generously sprayed with Gas.
( I'm hearing the Fuel pump cycling, is this timed or to presser in the cycle)?
It still would not start. I sprayed it again after three more attempts to start it.
and this time it caught. and ran fine until I pulled in to a gas station.
I put 10 gallons of gas in and it failed to start again.
It took three more sprays of starting fluid. to get it to start again.

the rest is as I posted prior.

This morning it did it to me again. this time I just shut it off and it would not restart.and it took more then 6 sprays to even get to act like it wanted to start. I was Parked on a 10 to 15 Degree incline facing up hill this time ( level ground before, if that makes a difference) I tapped the 'TPS'. just as a last ditch effort, thinking maybe carbon tracing on the rheostat/ potentiometer, maybe giving a bad signal, and again on the cold start( forgot the correct name) valve, near the throttle body.
It took a few more tries with starting fluid. and it did start.


I did have to hold the throttle open approximately 1/6th open.
This time it did start and smoothed out.
I did Not depress the schrader valve this morning, at a customers Home.( didn't think about it)
I hope this is a better explanation.
I like this car and don't want to part with it yet. Help.

Codes as of this morning are
172
173
176
211

Thank you again rudydist for your response.

 

[SHOdded]

Time to check, clean, grease the DIS/related grounds maybe? The 211 seems to point to a crank position sensor. Here's where to look up the meaning of the codes:

http://web.archive.org/web/20090429123516/http://www.shophoenixproject.com/eec/code3.htm

 

[Reinovator]

Time to check, clean, grease the DIS/related grounds maybe? The 211 seems to point to a crank position sensor. Here's where to look up the meaning of the codes:

http://web.archive.org/web/20090429123516/http://www.shophoenixproject.com/eec/code3.htm

Thank you,
Refresh my memory 'DIS'?

 

[zoomlater]

DIS is the rectangular gray device in the middle of the crossover tube (near the top and on the passenger side of the engine).

 

[SHOdded]

Distributorless Ignition System. The gray rectangular box that sits on the side of the intake manifold opposite the throttle body.

 

[rubydist]

OK, now we know that you have a failing fuel pump. When you push the schrader valve down, you should get a literal face-full of fuel. not a little bubbling out like you report, but an explosion of fuel that will cause you to jump back to try (unsuccessfully) to get out of the stream. Since you got "enough to go over the valve" there is virtually no fuel pressure and you need to replace the pump. I am willing to wager that solves your problem.

 

[itwonder]

Try this when it won't start: Turn the key from off to on (not start) position, and listen for the fuel pump. It should run for a few seconds and then shut itself off; the fuel system is now primed. Leave the key in on position. Depress the schrader valve. If you do not get the geyser Rubydist describes, the fuel pump is bad.

 

[Reinovator]

OK, now we know that you have a failing fuel pump. When you push the schrader valve down, you should get a literal face-full of fuel. not a little bubbling out like you report, but an explosion of fuel that will cause you to jump back to try (unsuccessfully) to get out of the stream. Since you got "enough to go over the valve" there is virtually no fuel pressure and you need to replace the pump. I am willing to wager that solves your problem.

I'm starting to believe you this is just to erratic and the other issue is I don't really want to do this. I don't I don't I don't. but I Will.
It will only take 45 to min to an hour and 45 depending on other issues, dirt, grim, rust, shade tree engineering.etc. if I stick to it

Ok key off no pressure.
key on pressure.

I'm not discounting your advise this is a question that "I most likely" don't ask correctly.
When you turn your key off how long. does the fuel rail retain pressure?

and to address 'itwonder'
I do listen for the cycling of the fuel pump. but here's my question for you.
when it cycles does it come up to pressure then shut off? or is it a timed cycling.
I understand on a bench or with a pressure tester. it doesn't take long(seconds) form your average fuel pump comes up to pressure.

 

[Reinovator]

DIS is the rectangular gray device in the middle of the crossover tube (near the top and on the passenger side of the engine).

I knew that. Thank you,
I don't know why it wouldn't Click in my head.
I think I've been hanging out with Government employees to much.
Way to many acronyms in my head right now.
Thank you again.

 

[luigisho]

I think it is a timed prime for the fuel pump. You might as well go after it. Like most jobs it's not that hard but time consuming. You can always farm stuff out if time is more important than the cost. I have to do that more often these days. Not rich... but time poor

 

[rubydist]

if the fuel pump works properly, then fuel pressure is retained always.

if the check-valve in the pump leaks, then fuel pressure will leak down, perhaps in a few days, perhaps overnight, or perhaps very quickly.
the reason itwonder told you to turn on the key for a few seconds, is that the pcm will automatically run the fuel pump for 2-3 seconds every time you turn on the key to boost up the fuel pressure if it has leaked down a little. if you do that a couple of times, it will build up however much pressure the fuel pump will build.
if the resulting pressure is a 'little bubbling' flow for a very short time, you know the pump is bad. there should be a very healthy gush that pretty much sprays all over the bottom of the hood for a second - there should be 35 psi of fuel trying to escape from that schrader valve.

if your description of "just a trickle" is accurate, the pump is bad. I have seen a number of cases where the pump will work fine sometimes, and other times won't run at all or will not build adequate pressure to keep the engine happy.

 

[Reinovator]

if the fuel pump works properly, then fuel pressure is retained always.

if the check-valve in the pump leaks, then fuel pressure will leak down, perhaps in a few days, perhaps overnight, or perhaps very quickly.
the reason itwonder told you to turn on the key for a few seconds, is that the pcm will automatically run the fuel pump for 2-3 seconds every time you turn on the key to boost up the fuel pressure if it has leaked down a little. if you do that a couple of times, it will build up however much pressure the fuel pump will build.
if the resulting pressure is a 'little bubbling' flow for a very short time, you know the pump is bad. there should be a very healthy gush that pretty much sprays all over the bottom of the hood for a second - there should be 35 psi of fuel trying to escape from that schrader valve.

if your description of "just a trickle" is accurate, the pump is bad. I have seen a number of cases where the pump will work fine sometimes, and other times won't run at all or will not build adequate pressure to keep the engine happy.

Thank you,
it was bothering me, that I didn't understand this.
I believe in asking questions.
and yes I do nit pick the answers sometimes. but this is one that baffeled me. I have ordered a new fuel pump and Filter, should get here this week.
I have changed the fuel pumps on a 87 Sable , a 89 sho and a 90 SHO but not on a 95 I don't think there is much of a difference in the mounting, but as I recall I see a lot of reference to making a access panel under the back seat this seems like a good Idea but I don't realy see the necessity if it's done right. or am I not seeing a reoccurring problem and should I get two pumps while the prices are low, Like the 89 to 91 tail lamps that I can't even find now.

Thanks again with this rubydist.

 

[luigisho]

You live in AZ and not in the rust belt and don't have to deal with everything under the car going to **** in short order. This makes short jobs really long-- hence making an access panel isn't a terrible idea for rusted out undercarriage cars. Also some vehicles actually have these access panels from the factory.