What parts are needed for a rebuild?

Discussion in 'V8 - Maintenance & Troubleshooting' started by Echo, May 28, 2017.

  1. Echo

    Echo New Member

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    Does anyone have an itemized list of parts needed for an engine rebuild? I assume head gaskets and bolts (even though these are near impossible to find). What else is needed?
     
  2. stephen newberg

    stephen newberg Moderator Staff Member

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    Well, it sort of depends on what was broken that the rebuild was required. More info needed.

    pax, smn
     
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  3. Echo

    Echo New Member

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    Thinking about picking up a new short block from eBay and using a donor engine to assemble a new-ish motor. Not sure which parts are one-time-use besides head gaskets and head bolts.
     
  4. luigisho

    luigisho SHO Member

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    You want to look at rod bearings, maybe main bearings, probably piston rings, all new seals and welded cams. Probably want to look at valve clearance, guides, seals. everything depends on mileage and condition
     
  5. sperold

    sperold Last to Know

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    There are lots of reports of reusing the head gaskets after they have received a coat of paint, I think some sort of copper based paint.

    I have no personal experience with the generation 3 engines, but if they are anything like the V6 engines, you many not need a whole lot of new parts. The V6 engines can reuse the rings, as long as you clean the ring lands, things like that.

    Do a lot of research on this topic, on this forum, and you may be pleasantly surprised.
     
  6. zoomlater

    zoomlater SHO Member

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    Shosource has V8 head gaskets from Cometic on their site
    Someone else has already installed some 3.2 Cometic head gaskets on a track car. Waiting to hear more on how they are holding up this season
     
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  7. Echo

    Echo New Member

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    Well, if I can secure a new short block, I think that should take care of the rod bearings, mains, piston rings, etc. That leaves possibly some seals and the upper end. Will look at clearances and tolerances.

    Is there a rebuild manual with specifications anywhere?

    Reusing head gaskets makes me nervous, but I guess it is good if there are reports of successful reuse without too much issue. Fewer replacement parts is good!

    Are there any reports of how the Cometic heads hold up over time? It is my understanding that these gaskets are not OEM style, but differ in construction, right?

    Any opinions on the difference between ShoSource and RocketRacingShop? It seems like RRS is selling the same gaskets at twice the price. They also seem to be using the exact same picture?
     
  8. zoomlater

    zoomlater SHO Member

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  9. gamefanatic

    gamefanatic SHO Member

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    For the price of the eBay short block (~$550 shipped), its not worth redoing the bottom end yourself IMHO. Unless you are building a custom bottom end. Though I had no problems with my bottom end so I didn't mess with this part.

    I used RR to source my head gaskets last summer as they weren't available anywhere else at the time. Prices definitely fluxuate based on availability, but are usually better priced on their website vs their eBay listing. They use Victor Reinz which are not made the same as OEM, but work just fine. I researched their material and can probably get a link to it for you later.

    I am fairly certain the head bolts are from a company like ARP, but they are repackaged in a plain box. Seems like companies like to keep the source of head bolts close hold. They use a Torx head instead of the normal OEM.

    All the other gaskets I got from RR were Ford OEM parts. You may not need the intake gaskets unless yours are damaged, but you will need the O-Rings for the spark plug valve cover holes.

    Heads are not available except off donor cars. So be careful. I did manage to scratch one of mine forcing me to take it to a shop to mill the deck for about $150. They were able to take just 0.003" from each to ensure they remained the same height. I did my own valve job, but probably would take it to the shop the next time to save on time. They can get it done in a day or two and get it clean for about $150ish for both heads.

    As for a manual AllDataDiy.com is your source for torque specs and assembly pictures. I printed it and put it in a 3 ring binder to use while working. If you aren't familiar with the tear down of these types of engines, keep in mind the most important thing you can do is prep. Use cardboard templates to keep track of where your bolts go, as there are many! Use that mechanics pen that resists oil and things with a nice bright color to ensure the alignment of your sprockets to their shafts. Before you loosen any bolts. I marked the chain too, but that was just for piece of mind, there is no specific timing link that I could find or any mention of in the manual.

    Now would also be a good time to replace the Camshaft seal and rear coils / spark plugs.

    Be aware that these cars are getting old and most of the plastic electrical connectors will be brittle! You may want to take the time to replace some of those. I found several areas where the coating of the wires also was decaying and exposing the wires. Check your hall sensor wiring and rear coild wires real good. It it recommended that you put a piece of high temp cloth between the coil wire and the head to reduce the heat induced decay of the wiring.

    Right now water pumps are also down in price on eBay/Amazon for the whole housing.

    Need to ensure you have a decent understanding of what is failed. In my case my head gaskets had failed (~100k), which is uncommon for these types of gaskets. Be sure you ensure the straightness of your heads and block mating surfaces are within tolerance. Mine were, which again shows that the issue was just the gasket failure, but could also just as easily been a water pump failure if that is bad, which mine wasn't, but I broke the housing on my pump so I had to get a new one. They are fragile near the engine bolt wholes! At the time they were selling for $24 for the same unit you can buy today at $70, or earlier this year at $240!... So like I said earlier a lot us based on availability of parts.

    Let me know if you have any specific questions.
     
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  10. stephen newberg

    stephen newberg Moderator Staff Member

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    Excellent synopsis post. :)

    pax, smn
     
  11. Echo

    Echo New Member

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    Thank you for this post. It is really helpful.

    A couple of questions off the top of my head:

    Did you use the RR head bolts as well? If so, what are your thoughts? Non-OEM makes me nervous, just because I know how much effort and testing goes into OEM components.

    Any thoughts on the RR gaskets versus the Cometic/ShoSource gaskets? SS gaskets are half the price.
     
  12. gamefanatic

    gamefanatic SHO Member

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    I can't comment on the Cometic Gaskets as I have not seen them in person and don't have any MDS on them, but as they use the exact same picture as RR I'd assume they are made the same. I trust ShoSource to provide quality products and would see no issues with going with their brand.

    The RR head gaskets are made from their AFM 20 material so I can provide some information in the attached PDF on their head gaskets and a picture so you can understand the difference between them and the OEM style MLS. From the description on ShoSource's site, I'd expect the same material and design. They won't be as durable as MLS supposedly is, but plenty good enough for a stock engine. We are limited on our sources as the OEM versions are no longer available. I am not sure if it someone has looked into getting a run from one of the gasket manufacturers to do the MLS style. The advantage these have over MLS is that they will generally sit better against the head, ultimately sealing better under normal circumstances. MLS require an absolutely perfect surface. Using the copper seal spray as many have suggested certainly would work to seal any imperfections, but the MLS would have to be in excellent shape. This is typically not the case when you have a failure at the gasket... :(
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    As for the head bolts from RR I couldn't be sure what manufacturer made them. I couldn't get a straight answer on from RR rather they were a TTY (torque to yield) type or reusable types like ARP would provide. I would have no problems getting them again, but again they are a Torx head style so you will need to make sure to get a set of those for your Torque Wrench. When putting the head bolts in be sure they do not bind at all. If you can "chase" the threads, that is best. I didn't have a chaser so I cleaned the holes with liberal amounts of Carb cleaner and compressed air (watch your eyes). I always lube head bolts and other moving head parts with STP 65148. I had to go a step further on two bolts and use some grease. It's critical that your bolts go in smoothly in order to get the proper and equal torque to of each of them! Not doing this can result in premature gasket failure.

    Before putting the gaskets on you absolutely need to make sure you have no warping on the mating surfaces of the head. Use a precision straight edge. I had access to a snap-on version, but I am sure the other manufacturers are just as good. Then use a feeler gauge to measure between each cylinder and along the edges at multiple angles.
    https://store.snapon.com/Precision-Straight-Edges-Straight-Edge-Precision-24--P637117.aspx


    Since you are in there you will also want to replace the Valve Stem seals. I also ran into issues with "OEM" seals not being available here too. So I did some research and found that FelPro 2536 or Seald Power ST2148 would work. Seals just need to support the 6mm valve stems, and Viton (3m) material is preferred. The old ones are a little boogery to get off as the rubber clamps onto a lip on the outer part of the guide. You can get underneath with a flat head, or use spark plug pliers like I did. The main thing is to ensure you do not damage the head along the guide. When putting the new ones on, always use a light coating of STP applied with an acid brush on the mating surface and the valve stem tool. Be sure to always use the plastic guide tool to ensure the valve keeper grooves don't damage the seals.

    If you do replace the stem seals, do what you can to ensure that the valve caps and shims go back in the same place they came out of... Speaking of which, be sure to use your feeler gauge to measure the gap between the CAM lobe and the valve shim with a feeler gauge BEFORE you take things apart... Doing this will let you know if your gap is in spec or needs to be adjusted (getting different sized shims). If you attempt to do this after assembly you will want to run the car for a bit to ensure all the parts settle back...

    Be advised this is a big task! Now that I have done it, I could do it faster, but expect no less than 3 full days work if all the bolts come out easily and you have the right tools, how much you take apart (or don't) can add to that time, not including any head work you may need to get done... And if you are like many of us, you will want to add time for cleaning parts thoroughly. This would also be a good time to replace your heater hose, and any other soft or cracking hoses.

    Carb cleaner is your friend for getting things clean! Walmart has the best priced. Be sure to use only in an well ventilated area...

    Let me know if you have any more questions. :biggrin:
     

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    Last edited: Jun 2, 2017
  13. gamefanatic

    gamefanatic SHO Member

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    As I am thinking about it, one problem while you are in there to also address is that plastic "Y" connector for the cooling. it should be brittle, or cracking. I used this brass one used for computer water cooling from NewEgg:
    Phobya 10mm (3/8") Y Tubing Connector) - Matte Black (63344)
    https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA9F93X69180

    You may want to replace the hoses, but you will have to look for something that is angled for that small area. you could get away with a straight line as the bends can be made, but its best to get one with the 90° built in.
     
  14. Qshiplvr

    Qshiplvr Member

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    I experienced shim failure and want to replace the Y brass connector. Can't seem to find it anymore. Any suggestions where to get besides Newegg?
     
  15. luigisho

    luigisho SHO Member

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  16. E1

    E1 Crash Tested

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    It's 3/8 for sure.
     
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  17. GEN 3 SHO FAN

    GEN 3 SHO FAN SHO Member

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    (I bought one in the last months and I confim that is 3/8 like Eric said.)

    I found good ones on E-bay but there are also bad ones there... (Probably like Amazone too where I bought recently an AC Delco waterpump for 35 CA $ !?. But when I unpacked it, a part of the propeller was broken... ?%$*&)

    The first I bought from China was said to be made from brass (because you want brass or another metal that will not melt/deform with heat there !). After some examinations, it's appeared that it wasn't brass, too light and the gold color was only on the exterior... The true color was a dark grey et the metal wasn't magnetic, not sure what it is, seems to be stain which can melt at lot less temp (448F / 242C) compared to brass (1652F /900C).

    As the motor runs something hot and this part isn't easy to change (and can cause a major failure), I decided to put a Y built with stronger material. If you go with plastic, same choice apply. There is many heat and chimicals capabilities in them (I gave up on that way).

    I wasn't able to find a good one with the exact Y shape (two arms nearer). The one I found have the 3 arms at same distance (similar to the 4th link of luigisho) for 7$. It was coming from China too.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  18. luigisho

    luigisho SHO Member

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    My first link above looks like black plastic but it's actually matte black brass
     
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  19. gamefanatic

    gamefanatic SHO Member

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