V8 SHO Catastrophic Shim Failure

Discussion in 'V8 - Emergency Issues' started by Qshiplvr, Jan 6, 2019.

  1. E1

    E1 Crash Tested

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2003
    Messages:
    496
    Likes Received:
    203
    Occupation:
    Printing mechanic/engineer
    Location:
    Chicago area
    Home Page:
    If it is just the front head, then fix just the front head. Piece of cake compared to the rear head.

    I have reused decent headgaskets before. I have reused bolts before and added 5# of torque with great success too.

    Always best to use new if you can still find them.

    I also lap in my own new valves, but sending out the heads for a proper 3 angle job = once again better.
     
    gamefanatic likes this.
  2. gamefanatic

    gamefanatic SHO Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2005
    Messages:
    399
    Likes Received:
    129
    Location:
    Barstow, CA
  3. luigisho

    luigisho SHO Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2001
    Messages:
    8,644
    Likes Received:
    1,683
    Location:
    va beach,va
    Home Page:
    I see you tagged onto this thread so your shim buckets are good etc? You have to look at the cylinder for damage that may require attention. You can price out the head work and locate a used replacement and compare price. I would only do 1 head if I could get away with it. Especially if it is in front
     
  4. Stan Phillips

    Stan Phillips New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2019
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    2
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Jefferson Twp, Pa
    I have a complete front head off of my parts car. I can always send that out to get worked. Would like to keep the original head with it if it is reusable. I did shoot an email (yesterday) to ShoSource for gasket & bolts. Will look to see your writeup (gamefanatic) on the procedure....ty for all your help.
     
  5. NoSlo

    NoSlo GoldMember

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2003
    Messages:
    663
    Likes Received:
    446
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Home Page:
    It's a "good luck finding head bolts" situation. Here's a conversation about possibly cutting Duratec head bolts to length.

    Here's a list of parts from this 2007 post, I bolded the parts you should replace for the front, and added some links to new parts:

    (2) Upper Intake Manifold Gasket - F6DZ-9439-B - $37.60 ea.
    (2) Lower Intake Manifold Gasket - F6DZ-9439-A - $9.26 ea. (available)
    (1) Center Timing Chain Cover Gasket - F6DZ-6020-CA - $13.18
    (1) RH Timing Chain Cover Gasket - F6DZ-6020-AA - $12.27
    (1) LH Timing Chain Cover Gasket - F6DZ-6020-BA - $12.27
    (1) Timing Chain Cover Crankshaft Seal - F5AZ-6700-A - $10.72 (available)
    (1) Rear/Right Head Gasket - F6DZ-6051-CA - $237.63 (available)
    (1) F6DZ-6051-DA Left head gasket $ 148.99
    (10) Head Bolt - F6DZ-6065-BA -$3.08 ea. (have not found any OEM sources)
    (10) Head Bolt Washers - F6DZ-6L015-AA - $3.03
    (1) Rear Exhaust Man. Gasket - F6DZ-9448-K7B - $19.53
    (1) Left Hand Valve Cover Gasket - F6DZ-6584-CA$23.98 (available)
    (1) Right Hand Valve Cover Gasket - F6DZ-6584-BA - $29.56 (available)
    (8) Cylinder Head Cover plug Gaskets – F6DZ-6F048-AA - $3.64 per 2 (available)
    (2) Cylinder Head Cover Gaskets – F6DZ-6F048-BA - $5.47 ea.
    (2) 3/8” Fuel Line Connection o-rings/Seal 5/16 X .07 - 390846-S96 - $1.64
    (2) 1/2” Fuel Line Connection o-rings/Seal 7/16 X .07 - 390847-S96 - $1.38
    (16) Fuel Injector O-Ring – F6DZ-9229-A – $1.03

    Now: head gasket set - $377.95.



    Head bolts are "tighten to (only) 20-23 ft-lb in sequence, then tighten an additional 90 degrees." - Torque-to-yield, no reuse.

    Part numbers are useful for sometimes finding liquidators clearing them out on ebay, or for putting in the Green Sales site.

    Of course, you could get a valve(s) to replace the bent one, have the head machined and a valve job, even redo stem seals and guides, and put it back together better than a used head.

    [6] Intake valve - F6DZ-6507-DA (available - $23.10)
    [7] Exhaust valve - F6DZ-6505-DA (available)
    [8] Intake valve stem seals - F6DZ-6571-AA
    [8] Exhaust valve stem seals - F6DZ-6571-BA (available)
    [11] Valve spring retainer keeper - F5RZ-6518-B (available - 27.42 each!)
    [10] Valve retainer (lower) - F6DZ-6514-CA
    [10] Valve spring retainer (upper) - F6DZ-6514-AA
    [12] Tappet - valve lifter - F6DZ-6500-AA (available - $27.29 each)
    [13] Shim/Spacer - F6DZ-6515-xx (or use v6 shims with no hole, and a magnet or pick to remove)

    also interesting:
    3 of four new camshafts available.
    Right hand head, new (no valves) F6DZ-6049-GA $405.53 (available)
    Left side valve cover replacement - F6DZ-6582-CA

    [​IMG]


    Guessing that the shattered shim is it being smashed by the camshaft after being partially ejected, and pushing the valve deeper into the engine also. I guess, make sure you can "reconstruct" the shim from the parts to be sure you removed them all.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2019
  6. gamefanatic

    gamefanatic SHO Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2005
    Messages:
    399
    Likes Received:
    129
    Location:
    Barstow, CA
  7. Stan Phillips

    Stan Phillips New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2019
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    2
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Jefferson Twp, Pa
    I have to say...this is a learning experience.
    Wound up getting 3 new exhaust valve & all new valve seals....thanks ShoGuy89.
    The machine shop said that it would be best to see if I could track down another exhaust cam (LH)...the one with the camshaft trigger ring.
    I did not realize the front & back (head) exhaust cams were different.
    Wound up using my parts car head....but I used the cam with the trigger wheel when I first got the car.
    The initial issue was a kicked out shim....the mechanic that did the work replaced the exhaust cam.
    If anyone has a "spare" non-abused cam...post back to me.
    Hopefully this is the last part needed.....can't wait to start putting it back together.
     
    gamefanatic likes this.
  8. Stan Phillips

    Stan Phillips New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2019
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    2
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Jefferson Twp, Pa
    I was able to get the cam from E1 (TY).
    Working on setting up the timing....does not seem to overcomplicated, but 1 question.
    They talk about the timing marks on the chains, sprockets and the balance shaft.
    Do not understand the balance shaft part.
    I don't know if they are just referencing that the chain goes around the balance shaft.
    I have the links on all the chains setup....just little paranoid about the balance shaft reference.

    Can anyone chime in on this ??
     
  9. Stan Phillips

    Stan Phillips New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2019
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    2
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Jefferson Twp, Pa
    did a little more searching on the website...found this
    Balance shaft index mark on the sprocket goes DOWN like in the drawing (more or less the dot will be in the middle of where the chain's contact range is).

    will continue on....ty for all that have replied ...hopefully get this all back together in a day or so.
     
  10. GEN 3 SHO FAN

    GEN 3 SHO FAN SHO Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2015
    Messages:
    645
    Likes Received:
    178
    Occupation:
    Records manager
    Location:
    Canada
    Hi Stan,

    Your search leads you in the good direction. Here is the plan from the Ford book, not great quality image but you can see that the mark is pointing down but there is a 7.9 decrees inclination to the right.

    timing 3.4.jpg

    I never did this repair but I have other photos id you need them.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2019
  11. E1

    E1 Crash Tested

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2003
    Messages:
    496
    Likes Received:
    203
    Occupation:
    Printing mechanic/engineer
    Location:
    Chicago area
    Home Page:
    I did this repair many times before I read somewhere that the big timing chain itself actually has black links used for the timing. I always just put it together real careful-like and did alright.

    No kidding - the big timing chain has black links for each of the timing positions.

    That said, yes. the timing marks are a little off this way and that. The picture from Gen 3 sho fan is the exact one I used to time all the engines I repaired over the years. Trust it.
     
    GEN 3 SHO FAN likes this.
  12. gamefanatic

    gamefanatic SHO Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2005
    Messages:
    399
    Likes Received:
    129
    Location:
    Barstow, CA
    For what its worth, mine didn't have any markings on the chain. But I didn't have CAM slip, so I had the luxury of marking the chain / sprockets before disconnecting it.
     
  13. E1

    E1 Crash Tested

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2003
    Messages:
    496
    Likes Received:
    203
    Occupation:
    Printing mechanic/engineer
    Location:
    Chicago area
    Home Page:
    They do. They ALL do, trust me. It is not very different, but the timing chain link DOES have a different color to it than all the rest. It can be VERY subtle.
    Like I said - I did MANY engines before I even knew it was there to look for.

    It is on the outside, it is a little darker than the rest of the links. There are only 4 if I recall. Look REALLY Closely.

    This picture. I just took it a few minutes ago. Has 2 Black timing links in it. Can you find them?
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Sep 2, 2019
    GEN 3 SHO FAN and gamefanatic like this.
  14. GEN 3 SHO FAN

    GEN 3 SHO FAN SHO Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2015
    Messages:
    645
    Likes Received:
    178
    Occupation:
    Records manager
    Location:
    Canada
    Timing marks on sprockets are somewhat subtle too with all the oil and carb deposits there...

    The big chain must have 4 marks. (I admit that I wasn't aware of this before.) Is the secondaries has these marks too (2) ?

    With all these marks, re-timing the engine isn't that hard. However, to reach the place is another game...
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2019
  15. Stan Phillips

    Stan Phillips New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2019
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    2
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Jefferson Twp, Pa
    Yes...after reading all about the colored links before getting waist deep, I was really only confused by the picture of the balance shaft setup. I had seen the marks on the cam chains (secondary), and at least 3 on the main chain.
    I will see if I can find the 4th colored link....which is the one that probably goes to the balance shaft.

    Again, ty to all that responded...going to see what I can get done on it today.
     
    gamefanatic likes this.
  16. Stan Phillips

    Stan Phillips New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2019
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    2
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Jefferson Twp, Pa
    Ran into another issue...appears that the RH head has bent intake valves. Was doing a dbl chk on everything before putting the timing chain cover on...ran leak down test. Almost lost my lunch. How bad of a job is the back head ?? Seems like I'm 3/4 of the way there now...Can it be done with the engine in the car ??
     
  17. gamefanatic

    gamefanatic SHO Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2005
    Messages:
    399
    Likes Received:
    129
    Location:
    Barstow, CA
    Absolutely can be done with the engine in the car. But, don't do like I did and drop it on the way pulling it out. Then you have added to the task... Make sure you have a good hold on it and pull it straight out once you get it loose.
     
  18. E1

    E1 Crash Tested

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2003
    Messages:
    496
    Likes Received:
    203
    Occupation:
    Printing mechanic/engineer
    Location:
    Chicago area
    Home Page:
    Its
    No
    Fun

    I HAVE done a rear head in the car just to prove to myself it could be done.

    That said - ouch - lots of bloody knuckles getting the alternator bracket off the block as I recall.

    Good luck, Sir. It CAN be done.
     
  19. gamefanatic

    gamefanatic SHO Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2005
    Messages:
    399
    Likes Received:
    129
    Location:
    Barstow, CA
    I actually had more fun with getting at the headers. You could disconnect them at the exhaust, but adds to weight and something else to catch on the way out...
     

Share This Page

If you wish to help keep SHOforum running, please click the donation button below