upgrades that are essential for your 2010 and newer SHO!

Discussion in 'Generation 4 - Performance Upgrades' started by Micaiah Auker, Nov 2, 2019.

  1. chrisjobe

    chrisjobe SHO Member Supporting Member

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    If someone with a 160 and 170 could replicate the above pictures that might help us as well. This now interests me to prove valid or not for my own OCD
     
  2. SM105K

    SM105K Land Yacht Pilot Supporting Member

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    People 100% think a colder t stat significantly makes your car run cooler. It doesnt. It is nominal. Are you really going to get a massive power gain from 180 instead of 190? No.

    Show me a car that runs 160 in any weather with a 160 t stat then you can devil advocate all you want.

    I dont care what Matt says, or LMS, or any other tuner. I car about tolerances amd metallurgy inside the motor.
     
  3. SaveMelMac

    SaveMelMac SHO Member

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    Just for the record running cooler isn’t going to make any more “power” IMO. It could help counter act knock/ping but those things are hard to measure by running a few degrees cooler. Maybe cheap insurance that may or may not help. No one can really be for sure.

    Sure a engine can run at 160 constantly but will need a huge radiator and lots of airflow.
    some modern cars use a factory 170 degree t-stat. Do they not care about tolerances?
    The real debate is at what temp are those tolerances effected? What should be measured is oil temp that is the best indicator of an engines true operating temp. Does anyone have those numbers?
     
  4. Dirty Harry

    Dirty Harry New Member

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    Think of it this way. Your engine has coolant in it and your radiator has coolant in it. The thermostat locks the coolant in the engine until it warms up to the thermostats rated temp. The thermostat then opens and lets the coolant circulate thru the radiator (and heater if on). From that point, the operating temperature will run at what the system is designed for. The temperature will fluctuate some depending on outside air temperature, load on engine, speed and if the fans are on BUT it will always level out at what the system was designd for. The thermostats rating has no effect on the engine temperature once it opens. Once it opens (when the engine warms up) it's open and out of the picture.
     
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  5. SM105K

    SM105K Land Yacht Pilot Supporting Member

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    The whole premise on the cooler t stat is the power gains. It is a push by every tuner. There is a whole thread arguing about it on the other site.

    I am not arguing about other modern cars use. I am talking directly on our platform.

    Ford designed these motors run a certain temp. EPA standards, bearing tolerances, ring tolerances, piston to cylinder wall clearance ect. If you are telling me running a cooler t -stat is going to make a significant say +25 hp increase because I have the ability to add a lot more timing. How much more timing?

    Every set up is different. Until someone shows me a direct comparison on the dyno or track that a cooler t stat makes significant HP differences, you will not change my mind and I will call it a gimmick.

    LMS made some ludicrous claim back in the day that the 3.5 EB ran optimal at 140 degrees......
     
  6. SM105K

    SM105K Land Yacht Pilot Supporting Member

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    Thank you, this is exactly what we have been trying to say.
     
  7. SaveMelMac

    SaveMelMac SHO Member

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    Somewhat true but thermostats cycle open and closed. The whole system is designed with everything in mind. Mostly how efficient the radiator can cool, airflow, water/coolant ratio, how much water pump can flow, capacity and thermostat temp. To dismiss the temp rating to have no effect isn’t true. It’s just part of the equation. Like said before it lowers the floor. The temp rating does shift the median operating temp some. Not the full 30 degrees going from 190 to 160. When you say system was designed for what you really mean is max efficiency, on a hot day with low airflow coolant temp will rise past any thermostats rating. On those days yes temp will rise to whatever the system can keep up with. Not on those days? Engine with 160 t-stat will operate cooler than one with 190. How much I would say 8-10 degrees. From my own observations.

    the main reason manufacturers are running engines warmer these days is for emission standards. Mostly Nox there is an apex where a hotter engine creates less Nox then will rise again.

    let’s just agree the issue isn’t as cut and dry as it’s made out to be.
     
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  8. SM105K

    SM105K Land Yacht Pilot Supporting Member

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    The issue is the push from the tuners saying a lower T-stat is a must to make more power. It is nominal if any.
     
  9. Dirty Harry

    Dirty Harry New Member

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    For power gain, you should be far more concerned with the temperature of the air entering the engine!
     
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  10. SM105K

    SM105K Land Yacht Pilot Supporting Member

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    100% agree.
     
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  11. SaveMelMac

    SaveMelMac SHO Member

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    I’m with you on that
     
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  12. chrisjobe

    chrisjobe SHO Member Supporting Member

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    Going back to the thermostat not being an "essential" mod for people just getting into the game.
     
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  13. SM105K

    SM105K Land Yacht Pilot Supporting Member

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    The OP said it was "essential". No it isn't at all. I doubt there is an SHO in this country that gets beat on every time it is started in the extreme climate like mines does. I have a stock t-stat and it works great in the 34 degree weather or 118 degree weather of Phoenix.
     
  14. chrisjobe

    chrisjobe SHO Member Supporting Member

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    Latest[​IMG]

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
     
  15. chrisjobe

    chrisjobe SHO Member Supporting Member

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    This morning. 0718 est. 43 degrees outside. [​IMG]

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
     
  16. Micaiah Auker

    Micaiah Auker New Member

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    this is my temp after it was driven about 15 min. and then I was tearing down a couple back roads and really working! it was around 63 deegres and i will say the truth it did hit 192 but that was the highest and while i was watching it with the same throttle it went back down to about 180 quite quickly. it goes up and down a bit I think its safe to say that it runs about a 10 deegre average cooler than stock because brfore when I moniterd it it would run a low temp of 190 and high temp of about 203 i do have a water meth kit on my car as you can see my cat temp isn' that hot.
     

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  17. stripSHO

    stripSHO Member

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    Let's not waste any more time with meaningless pictures of bottomed out stock thermostats. Here's a log from tonight in 25°F ambient, with notes. High: 198°. Low(post-warmup): 163°. 23-minute average: 179°. I wish I had a PID for the fan relay because I'll bet it was off pretty much the whole time. I also wish I had more road to see if the temp kept climbing during WOT or what. I posit that there's a latency once the fans kick on and Temps would have started coming back down while still loaded. There was obviously a sudden surge in cooling capacity. Maybe next time I'll try to simulate circuit type driving with many back to back hits and see what happens.
    ECT log.jpg

    That's a strawman. Nobody's trying to run 160°, or 170° for that matter. From the factory these cars' fans are set to come on at 212 degree ECT. A colder thermostat allows you to set the fans for 185 or 190 so no the ceiling isn't fixed like you guys are saying. If you tried turning the fan setting that low with the stock thermostat then the fan would run NONSTOP which carries its own dangers of thermal shock and just wastes gas. Based on your pics and anecdotal arguments that your engine never ever strays from 190° it seems that's your situation. Just a guess; ask your tuner your fan settings and let us know.


    I'm sorry but that's not true. See the 1,100 second mark above. The thermostat is the only thing that kept the temperature from plummeting even further. In fact, the thermostat was in charge pretty much the whole ride

    Colder plugs don't make power either so do you think they're a gimmick too?


    Where this whole debate that lower thermostats can't improve performance really falls on its face is in that it's only propped up by the false notion that the cooling system's capacity is somehow fixed. Basic physics say that at 190° coolant temperature the system can reject 117% more heat at 34° ambient than it can at 118° ambient. At 180° ECT my radiator in 0° winter weather can cool 150% more than SM105K's can in the desert heat. The thermostat's job is to throttle that excess and it's doing that most of the time in most of the cars across most of the world.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019 at 7:51 AM
  18. SM105K

    SM105K Land Yacht Pilot Supporting Member

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    Your point about colder plugs is apple to oranges. Colder plugd are proven to prevent pre ignition. A colder T-Stat is a gimmick.
     
  19. Jeff2017

    Jeff2017 SHO Member

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    My car runs cooler in the summer when I am using the AC that it does in the winter with the AC off. Because the fan is on all the time. As long as I am moving the temp will hold around 190. If I get into stop and go traffic it will climb above 200, unless the AC is on, then it will maintain 190-195.
     
  20. stripSHO

    stripSHO Member

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    Remove yourself
    Ok cool so you agree that:
    1) Adding power to an engine results in more heat being generated;
    2) Excess heat is a bad thing because it causes knock;
    3) Cooler spark plugs help dissipate heat.

    Now, where does that additional heat go? The colder plugs send are sending it into the cylinder heads. Where's it go from there? Into the coolant. Again going back to basic physics, the only way to increase heat flux from the head to the coolant in a fixed convective heat transfer system is to raise the temperature delta. So you've got two choices - let the heads heat up more, or lower your coolant temperature.

    The point that it seems you've missed in my prior post is that any competent tuners (yours included I'm sure) are lowering the fan setpoint to ensure a lower limit to coolant temperatures. This being preferred to just letting the heads get hotter and risking a blown head gasket. I don't think anybody actually gives a crap about the temperature stamped on the thermostat because that's not what their tuning to. The cooler thermostat is a simple necessity (yes necessity) not for direct performance gains but for the simple fact that there needs to be separation between thermostat and fan cycling or else the fan will get stuck on. In cold weather that's a really bad thing as the radiator will get really cold and you'll be thermal shocking the engine as near-ambient coolant gets throttled into it. It's not tuner illuminati conspiracy, it's just basic proper setup.

    But just for the record, Ford's factory calibration tables show that this motor has more efficient cylinder loading at lower coolant temperature. It also raises WOT lambda, reduces ignition dwell time, and a few other adjustments that demonstrate lower ECT = more power, higher efficiency and improved knock resistance. Yes the differences aren't significant, but they're differences nonetheless. Don't let anyone change your mind but for me - $60 for a cheap insurance policy against engine damage is an all-around no-brainer.
     
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