Upgraded turbos information.

Discussion in 'Generation 4 - Performance Upgrades' started by Corey Sig, Dec 8, 2015.

  1. Livernois Motorsports

    Livernois Motorsports SHOForumSponsor Sponsoring Vendor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2013
    Messages:
    1,449
    Likes Received:
    1,293
    Location:
    Dearborn Heights, MI
    It is pretty simple law of physics, force is never lost only transferred.

    Can't go into details, but there are (not singular) different systemS on the GT.

    :whip: Silence! Lol!

    Is modding your car ever cheep?

    Totally hear you SHOd!
    Unfortunately, time is not on our side if you catch my drift...:shame:

    As for a swap, that at the moment there is only a control kit for a manual application. For all intensive purposes, it is impossible unless you wanted to basically buy a 3.5 TT car, gut it and put into another Taurus.
     
    SHOdded likes this.
  2. White Beast

    White Beast Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2014
    Messages:
    36
    Likes Received:
    22
    Location:
    Arizona
    I HAD the alky system you all sell. Please identify what failsafes you use to prevent to starve the farthest cylinders?

    I notice for Mike's car you have a dual setup.

    This is pure curiosity in no way do I mean to disrespect you all as professionals.

    I am looking forward to what you all come up with for the trans. I would assume you all have something in the works.

    Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk
     
  3. Livernois Motorsports

    Livernois Motorsports SHOForumSponsor Sponsoring Vendor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2013
    Messages:
    1,449
    Likes Received:
    1,293
    Location:
    Dearborn Heights, MI
    The kit itself has fail safes built into it to alert you and the tune that there is an error. If that error is low levels, no meth at all or an issue with the system itself.

    That car is a little bit different in more than one way. First, it was our first real trip into that uncharted territory that we talked about on a client's car. Secondly, pretty much everything on his car was one-off or really close to it from a public consumption standpoint.

    No worries man! Like every other thread and post we are always here to help. You know that we don't let the cat out of the bag early! IF we come out with something you guys will know, don't worry!
     
    bpd1151 likes this.
  4. EcoPowerParts

    EcoPowerParts Active Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2011
    Messages:
    352
    Likes Received:
    130
    Location:
    AZ
    Just FYI the dual fuel system we sell works and works well, it was used on my Flex to break the 600WHP barrier with the transverse and now Jacob's SHO as well as another large build going on. It allows people to run E85 instead of race fuel which according to quite fuel with ethanol content over 80% is better than 100 octane or even 110 but of course at a much lower price. The design of the manifold allows for cooling of the intake charge as well, on my Flex we saw within a couple of degrees of ambient when spraying due to the cooling effects.
    As far as the hot pipes we make they were made when I chased a boost leak on my Flex for 3 months only to find it was the rubber piece connecting to the back turbo had a TINY hole from the expansion. Here in AZ rubber and plastic don't last long but we don't get rust, there's no humidity to keep the rubber and plastic from doing well. That being said I've stated many, many times that the pipes don't do anything for performance, they are to replace the factory plastic and rubber parts from turbos to IC and IC to TB with aluminum and silicone hoses rated for way more boost than you can ever throw at the engine. BTW, others have ripped the same spot I have then used a silicone hose to the plastic stock pipe, I figured if I was going to do it, do it right with beaded attachments instead of cutting off the rubber factory hoses and putting on silicone (I actually did try that at first it was not good).

    We current use the ProEFI ECU which is pretty expensive a microsquirt would also work well, I've reached out to a TON of companies to try and come up with a controller for the DI and PFI setup at once.
    I would say that Jacob's performance on E85 with stock engine, upgraded IC and our dual fuel setup that's within .1 in horrible AZ air does perform pretty dang good....
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2015
    OmaHahn and SHOdded like this.
  5. SHOdded

    SHOdded SHO Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2011
    Messages:
    8,508
    Likes Received:
    3,874
    Location:
    Maryland
    Does the ProEFI ECU replace the OEM or is it an add-on? Does it allow you to control the same (or more) parameters as the OEM ECU? How do you verify that kind of thing?
     
  6. EcoPowerParts

    EcoPowerParts Active Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2011
    Messages:
    352
    Likes Received:
    130
    Location:
    AZ
    It just controls the aux injectors and monitors AFR via it's own WBO2. It's a bit of overkill but it works very well. For cost effectiveness that microsquirt (motorcycle version of megasquirt) would work great as it can do AFR commanded as well, just need to make sure that at WOT both factory ECU and aux injector controller are shooting for the same lambda.
     
    SHOdded likes this.
  7. Livernois Motorsports

    Livernois Motorsports SHOForumSponsor Sponsoring Vendor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2013
    Messages:
    1,449
    Likes Received:
    1,293
    Location:
    Dearborn Heights, MI
    AKA Standalone fueling system.
     
  8. White Beast

    White Beast Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2014
    Messages:
    36
    Likes Received:
    22
    Location:
    Arizona
    Clarify what is wrong with a stand alone system please.

    Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk
     
  9. White Beast

    White Beast Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2014
    Messages:
    36
    Likes Received:
    22
    Location:
    Arizona
    How is the alky system not a stand alone system? Or is it in your definition?

    Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk
     
  10. Livernois Motorsports

    Livernois Motorsports SHOForumSponsor Sponsoring Vendor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2013
    Messages:
    1,449
    Likes Received:
    1,293
    Location:
    Dearborn Heights, MI
    The AUX kit that you guys are talking about is standalone system, because it has a control unit that is a completely separate system that has to be installed to run outside of the car's ECM. This AUX standalone control system has to run in parallel with the car's control systems.
    Strictly speaking a standalone fuel management system is a processor that controls the fuel aspects of an engine based on the programming and certain engine parameters (mostly MAP or MAF input, throttle position, A/F ratio, among others). A fuel management system only manages the fuel side of things; it does not affect anything else. Same can be said for a stand along ignition management system, except it controls the ignition system. When you combine the two, most people usually call them stand alone ECUs or standalone engine management systems. Depending on the features, a standalone engine management system allows the user to alter fuel settings, ignition settings, rev limiter(s), fuel cutoff, and limitless other options.

    Some good examples are:

    • Motec
    • Autronic
    • Hondata
    • Speed Pro
    • Haltech
    • SDS
    • Accel
    • Electromotive
    That is about complete I can make the distinction.

    Our meth kit utilizes our tuning to work through the factory ECM. It is technically a bolt on part. There is not a complete separate controlling system that has to be installed. A daily driver, like what the OP is asking about, is not going to run a completely separate control and fueling system that requires a totally separate computing system that requires external monitoring. Our meth kit is controlled completely by our tuning on the ECM. There is logic in our tuning that will pull out boost, timing, etc... if the fail-safes in the kit sense a lack methanol either in the methanol reservoir, nozzle and/or engine.


    That is the difference between a standalone system and an integrated system.
     
    SHOdded likes this.
  11. White Beast

    White Beast Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2014
    Messages:
    36
    Likes Received:
    22
    Location:
    Arizona
    Thank you for taking the time to educate us. I will now read this again and do my best to fully understand..lol..

    Thank you again.

    Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk
     
  12. Livernois Motorsports

    Livernois Motorsports SHOForumSponsor Sponsoring Vendor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2013
    Messages:
    1,449
    Likes Received:
    1,293
    Location:
    Dearborn Heights, MI
    No problem!
     
  13. EcoPowerParts

    EcoPowerParts Active Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2011
    Messages:
    352
    Likes Received:
    130
    Location:
    AZ
    I beg to differ on the aux fueling system both myself and Jacob DD our cars with the aux fuel system with no problems what so ever.
    I realize you guys don't believe in it, I get that. I understand it's expensive BUT the merits of running E85 in places like AZ, Nevada, California etc. etc. etc. is off the charts. Our gas is so bad the cars will detonate with a factory tune.
    Now do you have the funds to do turbos + fuel system + down pipes etc. It's going to be around $10K installed possibly more BUT with the aux fuel system you can run 550+WHP all the time on E85 at sub $2.00 a gallon cost.
    There's multiple ways to skin a cat, Ford tested the dual fuel system setup before the Ecoboost came out and has figured out that it's needed for the big HP they want know with the Raptor and the GT. BTW you can't compare the HP from meth to E85 it's a completely different animal IMHO I don't think I could have gotten 600WHP on my Flex with 91 octane (best available pump fuel) + meth, maybe 500ish would have been the best. The 600WHP tune I pulled drove off the dyno I DD'd in my Flex, just filling up the tank with E85 when it needed it (30%+ more often than 91)
     
    SHOdded likes this.
  14. Livernois Motorsports

    Livernois Motorsports SHOForumSponsor Sponsoring Vendor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2013
    Messages:
    1,449
    Likes Received:
    1,293
    Location:
    Dearborn Heights, MI
    We do not believe in it, because based upon all of our research for the OEM's and ourselves we know that this is not a VIABLE option for the 99%. Which is exactly what SHOddd and I were saying. Nobody is saying that a standalone system doesn't work, stop trying to apply obfuscation to the conversation, what I am saying and the facts that are quite clear. I clearly said that it does work, but it is not a smart route to go for a DD. Your argument is that there is one person that is having success in this circumstance, and one vehicle that has passed onto the other side that may or may not have ever had this kit on it.

    There are far more simple ways to "skin a cat", as you so eloquently you put it. That also require far less modification to the entire car. Which is easier, filling a windshield wiper styled tank for your bolt on part when your idiot light tells you to. Or, is it easier to fab and have tuned a completely separate operating fuel system that requires you to constantly monitor the activation of that completely segregated system? Easy answer.

    Running E85 correctly requires extreme care. I know that I personally don't feel like testing a vial of fuel every time that I need to fill up, who does? I could make the reverse of your argument, and say that running CNG is a better choice and that everyone should swap their entire fueling system to save the planet. That is equally as ridiculous.

    I was comparing the fuel pump solutions that are available for other platforms that share a similar fuel related limitations. You are pandering to the 1%, and that is great. I was talking about the obvious solution for the 99% like the OP was asking. The OP asked about ATP turbos, block upgrade and methanol...what does that have to do with E85? I have tried to keep this thread on track with every post. The fact is that all of your "testing" and/or "support" has zero to do with the OP's questions. You are only posting to derail the thread in an attempt to sell a 1% part. We are trying to genuinely educate here, because there are people trying to actually learn about the OP's topic. Can we keep it on track?

    Since you like to continually like to bring it up, where is this Flex? What happened to it? Funny, where is the video documentation of this mythical 600WHP Flex? We have made our documentation...several times over. We have shared dyno tuning runs, power pulls and even drag passes across several different media platforms! bpd's SHO is still on the road everyday...like everyday....
     
    SHO_Enuff and OmaHahn like this.
  15. EcoPowerParts

    EcoPowerParts Active Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2011
    Messages:
    352
    Likes Received:
    130
    Location:
    AZ
    I forwarded this over to Dan to have him review but if you go back to the first post he asked specifically about my fuel system.
    As far as my Flex it ran great but the trans didn't like the TQ. Jacob's car is handling it just fine, stock engine, same manifold I ran on my flex, Squash fuel pumps and a ProEFI and it's doing very very well. I have another customer doing an even bigger built right now working with [email protected] going full out with our fuel system, as more people use it more people will buy it. In the end how many big turbo guys are there out there, 15, 20? That makes the market super small.

    As far as E85, I thought LMS and I were done with the back and forth over E85. I spoke to Dan on the phone and in person at SEMA, there's not the issues of 15 years ago with E85. Here in town we have MANY MANY vehicles making huge HP on pump E85, why because as I explained the gas here is horrible. Your 91 octane would be like 94 octane here, it's significantly different. I can even go to different pumps here in town and go from knocking on stock tune to not, believe it or not the Chevron and Shell is not where you want to go here in town for gas.

    There is NOTHING WRONG with running pump E85 tune for E70 and you're golden.

    Just FYI Aeroforce is coming out with an E content sensor to work with their gauge specifically for Ecoboost clients as so many of the 4 cyl guys are running it. I have one of the sensors sitting in my garage, if someone wants to use it to test for them and has an Aeroforce gauge let me know and I'll ship it over to you.

    All that aside, there's no reason to talk down on the charge pipes I came up with nor the fuel system. Both work and work well, not just for the 1% but for anyone who is looking into upgrading turbos, down pipes etc on their car. The customer's budget decides what he will do and if he wants to run E85 with our fuel system so be it, if he wants to run C16 to make the power then more power to him.

    If you have any questions please call me the number is listed in my posts. I'm not trying to have a back and forth with LMS, there's just simply no reason for it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2015
    SHOdded likes this.
  16. SHOdded

    SHOdded SHO Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2011
    Messages:
    8,508
    Likes Received:
    3,874
    Location:
    Maryland
    Annnnnnndddd ... back to big turbo talk, please! Got anything to add in that regard?
     
    Livernois Motorsports likes this.
  17. BamSHO

    BamSHO SHO Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2001
    Messages:
    1,176
    Likes Received:
    813
    Occupation:
    printer
    Location:
    South Williamsport,PA, US
    Home Page:
    OK this thread got WAY FAR off topic. I've owned previous Gen's of SHO's and by have dealt with little or no aftermarket parts or support. It's great to see two companies very passionate about there products, but this bickering it not helping to promote the SHO platform. If I hadn't bought a Ecoboost SHO already and was doing research, reading this would of scared me. Both should of just given there recommendations and let Corey decide for himself. I've been a proud Livernois customer, but after this thread, I feel embarrassed for both companies.
     
  18. Livernois Motorsports

    Livernois Motorsports SHOForumSponsor Sponsoring Vendor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2013
    Messages:
    1,449
    Likes Received:
    1,293
    Location:
    Dearborn Heights, MI
    I must have access to a different Original Post...:scratch:


    That is perfectly fine. All of the threads and or posts that the company makes are sent out to the entirety of the company. Thank you for the redundancy :thumb:

    I know that you spoke with Dan about this at SEMA. I was standing right next to Dan when this took place. The consternation that I have is that you are arguing something that nobody is denying. E85 is an awesome fueling option. Standalone fueling solutions are great, for the right application...we do not recommend something so rash for a daily driver. I do not understand where the disconnect is. We are giving credit where credit is due, but the fact is that we will not recommend a more race car centric styled system for a normal everyday street car.

    Again, off topic. This has nothing to do with the OP's question.

    • ATP upgraded turbos- We offer our ATP kit
    • aluminum block- Extreme Series Engine
    • meth kit- Snowsotrm Meth kit

    That is just it, nobody is slandering your fuel system. The argument is that a completely separate standalone fueling system made for a fuel that is not available everywhere is not a smart modification. Simply because of lack of E fueling quality, consistency and availability. You are referring to the fuel quality, consistency and availability inside of the square that you reside in. Again, we are talking about the other 49 states that might not have the same access that you enjoy. BUT, methanol is readily available ANYWHERE.


    We will never oversell solutions just because one client has a larger wallet than the next. That is not how we do business. We will always offer up the good, better and best solutions for our client. If there is a more readily available, cost effective, safer and ultimately longer lasting solution we make sure that our client understands that we recommend heading in that direction. Like everything else, we make our expert suggestion and let our client take it from there. We will never sell to a client's pocket. We have several clients that we do complete bumper to exhaust tip builds for that run on race fueling. We actually just delivered a 2013 Camaro that started off life as a ZL1, but ended up a completely custom sheet metal intake, almost completely carbon fibered, roll rollcaged, F1X ProCharged, LSX monster that laid down over 1140WHP! That build runs on VP Racing Fuel's Q16, so again the fueling option that we built that car for is readily available anywhere.
     
    SHO_Enuff likes this.
  19. White Beast

    White Beast Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2014
    Messages:
    36
    Likes Received:
    22
    Location:
    Arizona
    Sorry.. I only mentioned fueling do the fact that you need the right fueling to take advantage of the power these turbos can add. That's all.. E85-C16-Meth either way it depends how close to the limit you want to get.. let's just have fun!!

    Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk
     
  20. Livernois Motorsports

    Livernois Motorsports SHOForumSponsor Sponsoring Vendor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2013
    Messages:
    1,449
    Likes Received:
    1,293
    Location:
    Dearborn Heights, MI
    Mike, sorry about the back and forth. We will address with the staff in the coming days, it just looks like someone went overboard on their responses. We have our way about doing upgrades, and we believe our packaged offerings are of course the best, otherwise why would we offer them? No different than you. You believe they are the ones you have are the best, otherwise you wouldn't be offering them.

    But, I think we can agree, that the only way to properly run E85, or make power that exceed the stock fuel system's limitations is to get an upgraded pump and injectors into play. Our methanol approach, and your auxiliary injector approach, both are different approaches to get around these limitations of the stock fuel system. To argue which is superior is pointless, but we do feel that methanol is more accessible and an easier pill to swallow for most people.

    We continue to try to work with companies to come into the arena and start developing these much needed items, but for now there aren't any other options besides adding in a system (whether methanol, or aux injectors)
     
    bpd1151, EcoPowerParts and SHOdded like this.

Share This Page

If you wish to help keep SHOforum running, please click the donation button below