Replace stock speakers

Discussion in 'Generation 4 - General Discusson' started by Sgtmeatsauce1, Mar 27, 2017.

  1. SilverSH0

    SilverSH0 SHO Member

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    Overall good answers that give someone just getting into acoustics a good starting point. Since you're a declared audiophile and I used to be an acoustic engineer for Harman, I'm going to correct this statement. The scale is exponential, however 3dB is NOT twice as loud. To increase output by 3dB requires twice the power (not twice as loud). In reality 3dB is a noticeable increase in volume, but not significant. Twice as loud is a bit harder to measure as it relies on the human ear which isn't as easy to measure as a piece of equipment. However, it's commonly accepted that something being twice as loud is an increase of 10dB.
     
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  2. SHOinVa

    SHOinVa SHO Member

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    - I try listening to the speakers in the store but lets be honest your still just throwing pasta against the wall too see if it sticks, you really need to research an find people who have listened to them. I can't find anything on the PG that is recent, other then they did suck but now they are getting better. I have read good reviews on the Focal's. Right now I am looking at Focal or PG, (that is what the shops I stopped at have steerd me too) the price point on both sets is about the same other then the PG are a little closer to there top line.
    - They are called Sound Skin Speaker Ring Kit and after some research I can see the benefit, it does come with an added piece of padding you "can" stick behind the speaker.
    - This makes perfect since too me and it was exactly what I was thinking (but unable to articulate) when the guy steered me away form the component system, but if you also upgrade your tweets would that not create a "wall of sound" so to speak.
    - Once again thanks to so much to everyone's help, this is very confusing, For the record I don't mind spending money but I also do have a budget and want to spend it wisely. Great Day All
    C/
     
  3. SilverSH0

    SilverSH0 SHO Member

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    A wall of sound, so to speak, is not good in a car. Once you emit a single pulse from that wall of sound it's going to bounce all around the cabin and you're going to hear it multiple times at different times (slightly offset). Hearing the same thing multiple times at different times is what's going to create that blurred/muddy sound.

    I did a quick Google search for the Sound Skin rings and watched the video from their website Youtube channel. I can tell you from designing car speakers, the foam is not to seal the speaker to the door and provide perfect sound into the cabin. It's there to prevent the door panel from rattling against the speaker an sounding terrible. There's also very little reason to seal the back of the speaker to the door frame (other than prevent rattling) because the frame is open and doesn't act as a box. However, if there is a box designed behind the speaker then sealing it obviously does help. But every new speaker should have some sort of gasket on the mounting surface. Honestly, I highly doubt you would notice any difference between having them or not.
     
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  4. SHOinVa

    SHOinVa SHO Member

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    WOW That just blew my mind, sounds like the plot to Interstellar, OK I admit the more speakers is better, is a hard concept for me to overcome but your a Sound Engineer so I am going to go with it. That makes my choice much simpler because the one shop was very clear the PG tweeters would be too hard to fit. So my question then, based on what you told me, is it also a bad thing to replace the rear door speakers with coax speakers. And taking this one step further what about the rear deck speakers.

    LMAO BUT There from Australia and they come in a cool box, its a tube with cool writing on the side. The foam thing comes with 3M sticky stuff and there from Australia. The guy trying to sale them said they where very important. LOL
    - SilverSHo do you have a speaker suggestion, some people are saying the Focal's are a little harsh which is what I am trying to get rid of, I am looking for more of a sweet sound with soft edges.
    Once again you guys have been awesome and a big help, have a great day all.
    C/
     
  5. glockcoma

    glockcoma SHO Member

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    The 3 piece foam kit is known as a "fast ring".
    https://www.cartoys.com/fast-rings-6-5-in-speaker-enhancement-kit
    While it's not completely necessary they do make a difference.
    The large circle stick to the door metal behind the speaker to prevent reflections, the small thin piece decouples the speaker from the door mounting point.
    And the tall round piece directs the sound into the cabin and prevents it bleeding into the door card.
    After all, you spent all that money to get better sound, might a well make sure it all gets to your ears....
     
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  6. Lostneye

    Lostneye SHO Member

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    Correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding, and some of this I am sure is from what is commonly throw around on the internet is: 3db is twice as loud as far as sound pressure goes but you are correct in the more important sense of how people actually perceive loudness. I see commonly put out there that approximately 10db is "heard" as twice as loud.

    The point I was trying to make was humans perceive louder as better to a point and factory speakers tend to be relatively efficient to make best use of the limited power in a factory system. Upgrading to a "better" sounding but less efficient speaker without additional power can sometimes end up with lackluster results.



    True but if you are not entering Sound Quality competitions you should be focusing on what sounds good to you. Speakers will sound different in your car than in your buddy's car but you should be able to tell which sounds more towards what you like. Many component sets also have tweeter adjustments in the crossover as well, so you may be able to turn them down somewhat if they are too bright for you as well.

    Multiple speakers are not necessary bad, it is pretty much a necessity as it's next to impossible to have one speaker effectively reproduce the entire audio range, it's multiple speakers playing the same frequencies that can cause the issues we are talking about. The crossovers keeps the tweeters and mids from playing the same information. As Silver SHO said a wall of sound is not a good thing, think of it as more not trying to create a wall of sound but trying to create a stage in front of you where you could pick out where each member of the band is standing and playing as opposed to where the speakers are. There is a lot more to it but here we are focusing on upgrading speakers with the limitations of the factory speaker locations and factory amplification/processing.

    I have fast rings in my current install. I feel I have had better results with CCF self adhesive weather-stripping in other cars and is even cheaper. I don't feel the open cell foam blocks enough air from getting into the door card to be as effective.
     
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  7. SHOinVa

    SHOinVa SHO Member

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    - Do I have this correct the higher the resistance the harder it is to drive the speaker but the louder it will get. You want low resistance speakers unless you are also replacing the amp.
    - They all sound about the same standing in the stereo shop and they all sound different every time you listen to them. (I bought a bed last year, I laid on about 50 beds, the one I bought was the last one I laid on and had never been on before).. The point is you can drive yourself crazy trying to find perfect, you kind of have to pick quality and track record and hope for the best.
    - So I understand why you don't want a two way an tweets in the front but my question is the same I had for SilverSHo coax (2-way) in the rear door or just straight up mid-range. Since I am torn my plan as of right now is Focal Component in the front and PG coax in the rear door.
    - Foam / No Foam - seems like there are some different opinions, so I guess it depends on what the shop wants to do.
    C/
     
  8. Lostneye

    Lostneye SHO Member

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    Not resistance(actually in our case impedance) measured on ohms. I am talking about sensitivity measured in db. The higher the sensitivity rating the louder the speaker will get with the same power.

    That can happen. Does one have tweeter level adjustment, since you are concerned about harshness? If there isn't a noticeable difference to you then don't stress over it.

    The factory rear doors are 2 ways. I would do that as they will get a full range signal or not at all. I'm not running rear speakers. The rear deck are subs and only get lower frequencies.
     
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  9. SHOinVa

    SHOinVa SHO Member

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    You folks have been amazing an helped me a great deal, you would think a stereo shop would have a basic understanding of what I need, but basically they look up on the computer what fits an try to sale me what they think I can afford. Couple of comments/questions.
    COMMENTS
    - I will have to use a shop but, I will do a little at a time an see how each improvement helps.
    - Seems everyone pretty much agrees the front door speakers are the best bang for your buck improvement, an component speakers will give the best sound. Trying to use two ways an straight replacement of the tweets will muddy up the sound an be counterproductive.
    - Rear doors speaker can't hurt but they are more for the rear passengers so don't expect a great deal of change in the front. They are two ways if I purchase two ways its pretty much a straight up plug and play replacement.
    - The rear deck speakers only receive a low end signal so components or coax would be a waste because there is no low signal.
    - As far as speakers who really knows, I guess read the reviews and buy what you can afford to live with. More expensive does not mean sounds better but it also doesn't mean they don't sound better. (For what its worth I crossed the Phoenix Gold's off the list, I can not find a real positive review anywhere, other then they are well made).
    QUESTIONS
    - What about the two center speaker, they guy at the shop said they front one was just for the navigation, but that does not really make since to me, should I replace them will it make a difference.
    - I know you guys have explained this too me but exactly what am I looking for when I purchase new speakers to avoid this, Or are new speakers just so much better this can be avoided.

    Have a great Sunday all.
    C/
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
  10. Lostneye

    Lostneye SHO Member

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    The center speakers are not just for navigation. I am not a fan of the affect and had it turned off even before I redid the system. If you use/like the surround feature you can upgrade. The stock ones are just mids, no tweeters.

    As far as it needing more volume to get louder there may be two issues at play. One is sensitivity which I have mentioned previously. The second is impedance. Sgtmeatsauce said he replaced with all 4 ohm speakers. I forgot offhand which but there are definitely some 2 ohm speakers in the Sony system. If I have a chance I will venture into the hot attic and take a look at mine.
     
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  11. WhatJustHappened

    WhatJustHappened SHO Member

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    When replacing the door and pillar speakers, are you all using the factory processor/crossover or a separate passive crossover?
     
  12. Lostneye

    Lostneye SHO Member

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    IIRC it is one output from the factory amp and there are passives with the factory speakers, possible just on the tweets.
     
  13. glockcoma

    glockcoma SHO Member

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    Mids and tweets are 4 ohm , center speaker is 8 ohm wired in parallel with the rear center essentially making it 4 ohm.
    Rear door coaxial are 4 ohm,
    And rear deck subs are 2.3 ohm each.
     
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  14. SHOinVa

    SHOinVa SHO Member

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    Greetings All, I assume this forum was down for everyone not just me, I have to admit I was going through withdraw symptoms there is so much good information out here and everyone is so helpful.

    - I don't need more volume I just wanted to avoid what happened to Sgtmeatsauce, I am admittedly a bit OCD and having my volume out of sync from what it should be would drive me a little crazy. You guys are saying to avoid having the same issues, make sure the replacement speakers ohm's match the original speakers, is that correct. I have been looking for replacement speakers for the rear deck an there is not a great deal of choice I have not seen a lot of 6x9 subs.
    - I think I have this pretty much laid out in my head what would could be good but I have one last question, can you add a amp into the system without replacing the stock amp. I ask because somewhere I think I remember someone saying if they had a do over they would add an amp to the rear deck, I could be wrong but I swear I read that.
    Glad the form is back, hope everyone is doing well.
    C/
     
  15. Lostneye

    Lostneye SHO Member

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    You should match the ohm rating and look for a higher sensitivity rating.

    You can add and amp. The only speakers my factory amp still runs are the rear doors(although I have it faded forward so they aren't doing anything anyway). Not sure about 2010-12 but 2013+ has fixed level outputs fro the deck to the amp and CAN signal to adjust volume at the amp. It can be bypassed altogether if you are amping the entire system but it is some work or I hear the new Rockford DSR1 integration module will work on these cars, some of the others don't. You can tap the signal post amp which is what I have done. I have heard the factory sub channels clip earlier than the other channels and that tapping the rear door channels is a better choice to add a sub amp. You just need a line output convertor or an amp that accepts high level inputs.
     
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  16. SHOinVa

    SHOinVa SHO Member

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    - OK I goggled that very question and could not find an answer, are you saying is I can run the amps in series taking the signal from the factory amp to the rear subs/mids/(whatever), amp it again an have more power to the rear 6x9's and call it a day. I am not looking to start driving around thumping but I thought a little more power to the rear deck would round out the sound.
    - I hope this will be one of my last questions, and I know it's relative BUT in general are the more expensive speakers worth the money. I am willing to pay around 250-300 a pair, (if its needed) specifically the Focal Integration 6.5 components are what I am looking to start with.
    C/
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
  17. SilverSH0

    SilverSH0 SHO Member

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    It all depends on how you're defining "loud" in your statement. Loud is not a technical term and is subjective. Thus, loud is generally in reference to how the human ear perceives sound. In that case twice as loud for the human ear is an increase of 10 dB in SPL (or more than 10x the power). If you're defining "loud" as meaning power to produce volume (SPL) then yes a 3 dB change is twice as "loud" which really just means it's twice the power.
     
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  18. Lostneye

    Lostneye SHO Member

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    Yes, that is correct.

    You will need an amp that accepts high level inputs, a line output convertor(which will take the amplified signal and turn it into low level RCA cable outs the new amp will accept), or if you plan on amping the entire system you can use a DSP.

    If you just want to add some decent bass I would get rid of the 6x9s and tap the rear door signal to your new amp and sub box.

    That's not a cut and dry answer. The cheap entry level speakers sold in chain stores like Best Buy, etc are usually that, cheap entry level crap. But expensive doesn't always mean better. I would spend enough money to buy something that sounds good to you. I haven't heard those Focals to comment on them specifically. Focal does make 5x7 Integration comps as well.

    You also have to realize the factory amp output is not flat, it is tuned for the response the engineer wanted with the factory speakers(I'll have to see if I can find the pic of the scope my installer sent me of the front output being scoped and post it), plus the interior of the car will affect the sound drastically. So without a DSP and a decent tune even the best speakers can only sound so good.
     
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  19. Lostneye

    Lostneye SHO Member

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    This is the front channel with the Sony system.
     

    Attached Files:

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  20. WhatJustHappened

    WhatJustHappened SHO Member

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    He used that because the front is the least EQ'd channel?
     

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