Post 120K Engine Failure

Discussion in 'Gen 1 & 2 - Engine, Exhaust, Drive Line & AC syste' started by myotis1134, Jun 19, 2020.

  1. rubydist

    rubydist SHO Master Staff Member Super Moderators

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    I would not use that type of head. Now that you know exactly what you need, you can order it online - places like fastenal have every kind of fastener you can imagine. If you like the hex socket idea, you can get button head screws with hex socket heads.
     
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  2. Tomuza64

    Tomuza64 New Member

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    Whatever screws you decide to use, I would personally put a dab of blue thread locker on them; just for good measure.
     
  3. myotis1134

    myotis1134 SHO Member

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    @rubydist - totally agree with you, and I have ordered more aerodynamic fasteners for the valves. I’m not so much a fan of the look of socket-head hex screws/bolts, so much as that they’re just so damn convenient for tight spaces where a regular socket won’t fit (although they do look good when used appropriately).

    @Tomuza64 - on the same page with you here too. The trick here is to keep both screws loose on all the valves, then thumb the assembly so that it rotates to 100% closed. At this point I jiggled the shit out of each valve until it gives me as good of a seal as possible, then tighten one screw to hold it in place while I backed the other out a little and dab some threadlocker around the screw tip from the backside.

    CD6E3CF3-ED60-4553-8D20-EB5277CFCE45.jpeg

    It’ll likely be a damn month before my aerodynamic fasteners get here, so I’m gonna finish this installation now, and redo the valves whenever they show up. In the mean time I’ll see if I notice any impact in HP from reduction in air flow.
     
  4. Tomuza64

    Tomuza64 New Member

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    Looking good! I'm in mid Tenn. Or S Carolina most of the time so, I'm gonna delete the throttle body coolant lines and fixture by IAC Valve. I never go north to worry about "low" freezing temps... It "May" even help it have cooler air in the intake tract; maybe (??). Of course, that may be counter intuitive when it get to 100° outside.
     
  5. myotis1134

    myotis1134 SHO Member

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    @Tomuza64 - I couldn’t speculate with certainty. It doesn’t hit 100 very often in Alaska.

    I am certain, however, that my crank pulley might be jacked up. Does anyone else have three timing marks on their pulleys?

    E3470628-B802-4609-AF7A-E3B6A32415D6.jpeg

    I had to pull a spark plug and stuff a socket extension in cylinder 1 to figure out which one is the white mark.
    If the middle mark is white, and the yellow mark is to the left, then what the hell is that third mark doing there? I did some searching, but so far have not come across any mention of a third timing mark.

    It’s a little more obvious in this straight-on pic:

    ACAFAEDA-B29D-45DF-8270-9A4E5C1DC02E.jpeg

    I just cleaned most of the rust off this bad boy - I was going to soak it in vinegar overnight, but apparently that’s hard on the rubber.

    The funny part is that this pulley has lost most of whatever paint it had years ago - since I certainly never noticed any white or yellow on or around any of the timing marks. This is why I had to find TDC the hard way.
    About to remedy the lack of paint indicators though, she just needs a little scrub-down and an alcohol bath at this point - which leads me to another question - should I make an attempt to prevent paint from getting on the ribs? I see that paint was applied to the whole thing at one point, but I’m gonna be doing a rattle-can job with 2 coats of primer and 2 of epoxy.

    image.jpg

    My thought was that an epoxy-based paint would be one of the best choices for this component, since it’ll seal everything up like a champ, can take the heat, and shouldn’t just scuff off after a few years of exposure... Opinions?
     
  6. rubydist

    rubydist SHO Master Staff Member Super Moderators

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    paint on the grooves will wear off quickly enough, but I would limit the amount that gets on there to the extent that one can with a rattle can.

    also, look to be sure that the outer part of the damper pulley has not moved from its proper orientation - the rubber will eventually de-bond and then the damper pulley is not valuable as a damper. I have seen several of these where the rubber has let go and the outer part of the pulley is not in the right place, and these cars are another 5-10 years older now than they were then.
     
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  7. myotis1134

    myotis1134 SHO Member

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    @rubydist - That’s a good point. The scenario never occurred to me.

    The damper appears to be ok, but I haven’t been keeping an eye on it either.

    028DD2CC-1B3D-4908-98DE-DBF4242E0229.jpeg

    3618F269-23B1-4744-886F-86C238E66DA6.jpeg
     
  8. Tomuza64

    Tomuza64 New Member

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    028DD2CC-1B3D-4908-98DE-DBF4242E0229~2.jpeg What about a punch mark on inner hub to coincide with centre mark; that would be a good indicator of movement or just paint marker lines across it?
    ... Just thinking out loud here.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2020 at 12:03 AM
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  9. myotis1134

    myotis1134 SHO Member

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    @Tomuza64 - I tried, but couldn’t find any paint that would work. Ended up getting Milwaukee white and yellow paint pens, and just daubing some paint in the respective notches. They won’t last, but at least I’ll be able to see what I’m doing.
    IMG_2007 - Copy.JPG

    I think I was definitely 180 degrees off with the timing. There was no way in hell I was going to pull my valve covers for a third time, so I went with the good old fashioned balloon method to find the compression stroke.

    61535768014__70950367-E03B-447C-8ED0-EFD52FD51597 - Copy.JPG

    Pretty sure I've got a handle on the timing this time, and started buttoning up the timing belt covers last night. Ran into a little setback when I pulled the cam position sensor to double check the shutter position, and discovered one of the screws had questionable threads. Replaced the screws this morning, and I'm getting ready to head back out there.
    After finding the screw issue last night, I couldn't continue with assembly, so I cleaned up the DIS mount on the surge tank crossover. The mount area provides a ground for the DIS, but also acts as a half-ass heat sink. Unfortunately these parts are cast, and the surface is pitted as hell, so I smoothed and polished it up - just in case I was wrong about the timing being the issue and my DIS pooped out due to heat.

    IMG_2009.jpg

    Not gonna lie - this was a pain in the ass, and there is still pitting that I wasn't willing to go down to, but the majority of the area is nice and polished - which should help with the heat conduction considerably.

    It took one session with 120 grit, one with 200, two of 400, three of 800 (wet), and 3 of 1500 (also wet). Not exactly a mirror finish, but not too shabby either.

    IMG_2010 - Copy.JPG
     
  10. rubydist

    rubydist SHO Master Staff Member Super Moderators

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    make sure you put heat sink paste on there - that is more important than the pits/no pits issue.
     
  11. zoomlater

    zoomlater SHO Member Supporting Member

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    I have used Artic silver thermal paste before
     
  12. Bryan

    Bryan Glamour Bird 1969

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    Well at least be safe in the knowledge to know that even if you did mess up the timing belt (hopefully not!), these engines are non interference. So at worst you just end up towing the car home.
     
  13. myotis1134

    myotis1134 SHO Member

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    Finished up the assembly last night - replaced the O2 sensors, the TPS, and topped off all fluids. Took it off jack stands and torqued the dampener, dropped the battery tray in, then bailed.

    Today it's holding all fluids - no leaks spotted. Fired up the second time, and has started every time after that, but it's idling like crap. I know it has to relearn to idle, but I'm sketchy about what it's doing. How rough should the idle be right off the bat?

    I took a video of how it's running, and if it ever uploads, I'l post it or a link to it. At least it starts consistently.
     
  14. myotis1134

    myotis1134 SHO Member

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    Had to upload to youtube. Here's a link to the current idle.

    LINK
     
  15. myotis1134

    myotis1134 SHO Member

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    Idle is starting to hold long enough for me to get out and look over the engine. I'm hearing a whistle/whine from the driver side near the IAC, maybe just forward of the throttle body.

    IMG_E2020.JPG

    This noise appears to be dependent on the RPM - rising and falling in time. It starts around 1K, and disappears below that.

    Here's another link to a vid where I'm attempting to locate the source. Sorry it's shaky.

    video link HERE
     
  16. luigisho

    luigisho SHO Member

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    Wow. Was that trying to keep idle by itself or were you giving it gas? Codes? Large vacuum leak? What did you do to the rear of the intake again? I guess timing could always be an issue. That IAC is clean. New?
     
  17. luigisho

    luigisho SHO Member

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    If you are hunting a vacuum leak you can use carb cleaner, starting fluid, propane, some people use smoke.
     
  18. myotis1134

    myotis1134 SHO Member

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    That was the vehicle attempting to idle by itself - no throttle. All the vacuum lines in the area have new hoses and clamps on both ends. Brand new IAC, DIS, TPS, O2 sensors, cam and crank sensors. Intake manifold was completely taken apart, cleaned, and reassembled to max torque specs with new gaskets.

    I just read over another thread about the engine making a whistling noise, and it was a too-tight timing belt. I think the shophoenix tutorial is in error about how it says to deal with the tensioner - rather than letting it spring back against the belt, rotate the crank a couple times to the yellow timing mark, and torque the nut, he says to apply extra tension against the belt, then tighten.. I wonder if that could cause this noise in this area - excess timing belt tension?

    I'm going to check vacuum lines again... Then I guess I'm gonna tear down the front end and check the timing belt again... this is starting to get old...
     
  19. myotis1134

    myotis1134 SHO Member

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    Pulled the codes generated:

    - 121 - Closed throttle voltage higher or lower than expected
    - 123 - Throttle position sensor above maximum voltage
    - 542 - Fuel pump secondary circuit fault

    Pulled the IAC connector - no change.
    Pulled secondaries vacuum line - no change.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2020 at 8:55 PM
  20. luigisho

    luigisho SHO Member

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    It could be vacuum lines but maybe a gasket is also not sealing. Not sure if the TPS is bad or having a problem compensating. Timing can always be a possible issue with belt change. Usually the fuel pump code gets thrown with a stalling event.
     

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