Miscellaneous intake/cooling/fuel questions

Discussion in 'V8 - Maintenance & Troubleshooting' started by 98SF19, Nov 10, 2017.

  1. 98SF19

    98SF19 AlphaKennyBuddy

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    As the weather is getting better for being outside, I'm ramping up the work flow on getting projects knocked out. Currently have intake apart, going after coil in cylinder #3, and blown away by how much oily moisture has infiltrated the gaskets and around the PCV hoses (I suspect a leak there). The surge tank had several pools of it, each about an ounce of thin oil. So getting a tried and true catch can set up will be a priority. Any suggestions there are very welcome, though I know the site has some threads on the topic.
    Beyond that:

    1) Intake horn metal gaskets have a bunch of bubbling/flaking/peeling black paint. Is best practice to remove all paint and repaint with regular spray paint, or is there a special sealant I need?

    2) See the orange sensor in this pic:
    20171108_210332.jpg

    This is the area under the throttle body, firewall is to the right, battery to the lower left, and you can see the secondaries' lever at top (Throttle body is unbolted and moved away). QUESTION: Is there supposed to be 2 wires going to orange sensor? What is it?

    3) Fuel rail - I have the 4 bolts out, but it's locked in there pretty well. Do I just need to pull up firmly to pop it off the 8 injectors? I think Nimz indicated so a while back, just wanna make sure. Speaking of injectors, whats their lifespan? I don't remember ever having them replaced (owned car since 2000). All 8 primary intake ports show clean fuel paths, so injectors are delivering fuel, but perhaps not as efficiently as before?

    4) Considering removing butterfly shaft, but not sure how involved the removal of lower intake is. Once fuel rail is out of the way, can lower intake be removed as a whole unit, with shafts, springs, etc.? Otherwise, I don't know how one would go about removing the shaft.

    That's it for now. I was pleased to see the rear plug wells looked very clean - #3 coil pack bolts were not tight at all, a bit loose if anything. Not sure how that happened or if this was reason for misfire (not bad coil). Need to move wiring harness to inspect valve cover before reassembling. Hopefully, I end up with no misses, at least not from rear bank! After this is resolved (all issues above), I'm onto new rear calipers. Shop said they couldn't find proportioning valve, but bias plugs will be the answer for that. Rear struts won't be hard since rear seat is already out. I guess I'll then need to stock up on yellow and blue spray paint . . . :rolleyes:
    Eventually will get back to AC and wrapping up door strip led project, for which I will include some teaser pics of passenger side thus far (still a lot to do with relays, sequencer, switches, etc.).
    20170402_225014.jpg 20170402_225142.jpg 20170402_225154.jpg
     
  2. GEN 3 SHO FAN

    GEN 3 SHO FAN SHO Member

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    For your question (#2) : No, it's OK.

    We have 2 temp sensors one for ECM, grey with 2 wires and one for the dash with only 1 wire (same thing on SLO). When you replace them, be sure to replug them correctly because aftermarket parts are interchangeable. Originals have different colors and a tooth at a different place however.)

    It's not a bad idea to replace the one for the motor after 135 k if you already have the place to replace it (less than 10$).

    For your question (#3) : Just a clue. I spoken about injector with my mechanic recently, he said during his 37 years of carreer, he changed only 2 or 3 times a bad injector. Keep them clean and they will last long OMHA.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
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  3. 99sho-time

    99sho-time SHO Member

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    your gaskets are probably not flaking where its important. I just cleaned them a little and re used. for re assurance i used high tack spray a gasket sealant from permatex. the intake on these things is an awesome piece of engineering and its hard to make them leak. if the gaskets look decent and arent flaking where its important just clean them and re use them use a torque wrench 20ftlbs.

    The fuel rail is a major area where experience comes into play. Fuel rails do NOT like to be uprooted they are hapy where they are. so yes they take alot of force to pop up as with most fuel rails.

    Injectors in my experience youl notice a difference in fuel trims in my opinion. old ones just arent gonna be as crisp, but i don't know much about that I just know after my injector change my fuel trims were perfecto. and yes injectors are probably fine they last a long time.

    Putting that fuel rail back in is gonna require patience and accurate force to pop in. oil the O-rinsg very well Vaseline or oil. dont bolt it together before checking if there is a leak.
    New injectors the o-rings could be a real PITA to get in.. the new o-rinsg could be sooo hard to get in you may have to swap an old one one on the new inejctor... Yes its true

    also the injectors themslves if you have a 96-97 the injectors are not the same connector as a the 98-99 a little decrepency that most part places have no idea about. 96-97 are Jettronics and the 98-99 are USCARS

    butterflys and shaft comes out with the LIM

    The loose coils I dont think would make it misfire i ncould be wrong but the spring coil would just move and stay connected unless it was really really loose. but this is my opinion.

    careful with coils from rockauto.. by new coils from a trusted place doesnt matter what kind tbh
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
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  4. 98SF19

    98SF19 AlphaKennyBuddy

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    Never have I learned so much from 2 posts than what you guys offered. Thank you!

    So to summarize:
    1) Gasket bubbling - I think maybe I'll just do a light sanding with a fine grit paper to get any loose or nearly loose finish off, and perhaps I'll check out that sealant.

    2) Sensors on coolant lines under TB - I think I will replace the grey sensor (temp. sensor for ECM). Under $10? Shoot, might as well.

    3) & 4) So what you're saying is that I might be making a long job for myself by attempting to remove fuel rail, but that if the goal is to remove the butterfly shaft, it'll most likely have to happen that way? I'll have to give Stephen a chance to remind us that wired open and no shaft yield virtually the same air flow. o_O I think the main benefit would be in the ease of cleaning the secondary port every 20k miles or so, being able to get a cleaning rod down in there w/o the damn shaft getting in the way. To test for leaks, I suppose I'd pull starter fuse, reconnect battery, and set ignition to key-on engine-off, and let fuel pump reach max pressure?

    Loose #3 coil - I wonder if the coil spring was even in solid contact with the plug. I plan on adding a smidge of dielectric grease to all plugs during reassembly.

    Something I mentioned early in post was the catch can setup. Either of you guys currently using one or even have custom setup? I really wanna keep the FL humidity out of my motor! Thanks again! MB!! :D
     
  5. 99sho-time

    99sho-time SHO Member

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    I wouldn't sand the gasket. the gasket should clean right up with a little brake cleaner. it's not like they are head gaskets and need to be totally decontaminated. spray em down wipe softy with a soft rag undershirt.

    temp sensors is just a deep socket i forget which size pretty big.

    as far is removing the butterfly shaft Im pretty sure you'd have to take off the fuel rail. but im not 100% sure hard to remember what the LIM looks like.
    if you pull the fuel rail.. in order to test fuel pressure/leaks just plug all the injectors back and put ignition on ,run out of the car look for leaks get rdy to remove the key if you see one.
    reaching max fuel pressure just takes like 3 cycles off ign on and off. if its gonna leak its gonna leak regardless if at max pressure or not. dont have to remove a fuse.

    Personally I'd leave it stock. the car is tuned to have it that way. if you do run a catch can i'd imagine leaving them i wouldn't worry about 20k. fuel rail is gonna be challenge if its your first fuel rail and if it leaks and it very well could you might blow the EEC fuse. its easy to rip an o-ring.

    Catch cans I have mixed feelings about them because you have to make sure you dont add any restrictions to the pvc system and our engine bays dont have much room to make a nice short trip to the catch can, you have to get creative.

    these motors do seem to run pretty dirty. it's normal i think for them to accumulate alot of oil in the surge tank and gaskets.
    when i cleaned my intake valves they were pretty dang dirty.

    as far as a ignition coil if it was totally disconnected you'd know it... and so would the computer. these cars aren't good with detecting random misfires or other strange things defective coils can do. the coil is on its way out i'd imagine. just get 4 new ones for the rear. make sure theres no oil pool in the spark wells to.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2017
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  6. stephen newberg

    stephen newberg Moderator Staff Member

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    I think all of the just above is pretty good advise and comment.

    pax, smn
     
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  7. 98SF19

    98SF19 AlphaKennyBuddy

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    Re: gaskets: Basically I just didn't want any little pieces of the original finish getting sucked into motor but hardly any of those surfaces are exposed anyway. Just looked on AA site for some of the gasket sealant - none to be found anywhere and one review said it was the only can in all of eastern Iowa and didn't spray right. Guess it's on the verge of being discontinued . . .

    Re: fuel rail & butterfly shaft: I can leave well enough alone I guess. Just wanted a way to clear up things in there and make it easier to clean secondary ports from time to time. Still might do the catch can setup - I remember somebody on here, maybe Nimz, had outlined how he'd set it up. Read it pretty recently. Wanting to get the car back on the road soon, I can get the hoses, bends, hardware, etc. needed for catch can ready in the meantime (as if I need more "future install" parts in my garage!).
     
  8. 99sho-time

    99sho-time SHO Member

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    if you do exactly what mister Nimz did you'l be fine if you decide to go a fancier route don't get a 15 dollar ebay catch can get something with bigger openings like with 3/8 fittings and a higher quality.
     
  9. 98SF19

    98SF19 AlphaKennyBuddy

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    Out and about last night trying to hunt down 3/8" brass or plastic barbed elbows - none to be found either at AA or Home Depot. WTH?? Also, AA's site showed 11/32" rubber hose available, but at store, they couldn't find it. I guess the planets were just not aligned in my favor. Your setup looks like you have the can down near the SAI - was this to avoid high temps and exposed moving parts?
     
  10. GEN 3 SHO FAN

    GEN 3 SHO FAN SHO Member

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    It's to avoid motor heat.
    http://v8sho.com/SHO/Under Hood Temps.htm

    Nimz recommanded also to bring plastic/PVC part to do this because they will not absorb heat and then will liquify gases entering them. I re-creadted a post here when did mine from all info Nimz wrote here and there. Wiring this near SAI is a little bit tricky, I put mine beside the battery near the fender to avoid a maximum of heat. I made it from a Home depot Husky pressurerized hose filter. They have 2 sizes with a switch on the bottom to let go what it kept. I put steel wool into it to help agglomerate oil. To know if the system is restrictive, I just flow air from my mouth into it. I rerouted the hose in keeping the same way (same direction but longer).

    Note : I have this system for about more than a year, the car is running mostly in summer. I checked it recently and I have almost nothing in (less than 10 milimeters). Mechanics who I talked about said that this system will accumulate stuff during cold conditions principaly. I'm thinking about transferring the system on my SLO which runs on winter mostly.

    I will put photo of my setup if you want.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017
  11. 98SF19

    98SF19 AlphaKennyBuddy

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    Mais oui! I was actually referring to 99sho-time's pic that I saw recently (at least I thought it was in this thread . . .). Yep, that's basic chemistry with condensing gases at lower temps (IOW a higher differential between steady state motor temp and outside ambient temp). Yet another leg up you northern guys have over us down in the tropics. :( So did you look for a can that had an auto-dump purge operation? Maybe that was the main feature of Paul's setup. When I have more time at home, I'll try to dig out his post on the matter, though some parts may not be available anymore. Also good point with using plastic connectors for keeping in-line temps down.
     
  12. GEN 3 SHO FAN

    GEN 3 SHO FAN SHO Member

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    Overall, I prefer your temp. Except for the hurricanes. ;) And you don't have to deal with rust at all.

    My auto-dump is my hand sadly. But before you have to empty it, it will takes many month as you re in a hot climate. However if you system is very efficient, maybe it will takes some more than me. Mine is made from rubber hoses (3/8 IIRC), glass et steel. Will be better with plastic/PVC all along.

    Don't forget that the longer is your hoses the more the gases will condense too. Maybe a small prestone rad placed in front of the car can be great (with a small opening on the bottom like normal ones) but you have to find a place. (That place is already occupied by the 3rd trans oil cooler on mine...)

    P.S. To be sure, O-rings for injectors are not so difficult to find.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017
  13. 98SF19

    98SF19 AlphaKennyBuddy

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    I think I'll kick the catch can and fuel rail/LIM removal parts down the road until I can get parts together. Other projects needing done in the mean time.

    However, I did take the liberty of hunting down what I think is at least one of Paul's descriptions of his <ahem> "condensation can" setups. lol
    This isn't the one I remember with more detail and pics, but close enough I think:
    https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/pcv-catch-can.91674/#post-939273

    I also found a very basic kit on amazon for less than $20 which provides a suitable starting point for what Paul describes above. If you read the reviews, you'll see what I mean - the can has no baffle or media but is apparently well made (6061) with barbed ports:
    https://www.amazon.com/Univeral-Alu...10632695&sr=1-11&keywords=catch+can+gold&th=1
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017
  14. 99sho-time

    99sho-time SHO Member

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    dont use that bottom one lol
     
  15. GEN 3 SHO FAN

    GEN 3 SHO FAN SHO Member

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    I think I never found this post of Paul before. But i have a photo of this set up somewhere (it was on his red one)...

    For the second find, I'm with 99sho-time. Until you can't see how it's made internally, I will not go with that. The 2 opennings must be at the upper end but must also have nothing reducing air flow into it. (I must said that I have to retreive a kind of "sand filter" on my Husky one from Home Depot.) Can be a good thing too to have something that let you know if you have stuff in it (transparent or pale material).

    Long time ago, I found another one for pressure hoses that was filled with small plastic balls to help agglomerate oil.
     
  16. 98SF19

    98SF19 AlphaKennyBuddy

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    From my experience, reviews on Amazon are sufficient indicators of quality. You can usually tell what's legit from what's not. The can itself got good reviews, and the whole setup costs less than $20. The cylinder component ("can") in that link appears to be a glorified version of what Paul made from electrical and/or plumbers materials. Forget about the hose that's included (though the mounting hardware actually got decent reviews from what I read). I saw that the can fittings are 1/2" so you'd need a couple additional in-line fittings on hoses. Put a baffle and intercepting media per Paul's description, install in a cool spot down low and call it a day.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  17. 99sho-time

    99sho-time SHO Member

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    I have seen that can in person its restrictive and leaky. the second is just a can theres no baffle in that can the fittings all it is one hangs lower in the can.
     
  18. GEN 3 SHO FAN

    GEN 3 SHO FAN SHO Member

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  19. 98SF19

    98SF19 AlphaKennyBuddy

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    Ok, well, the con can idea will be put on hold for now.
    As for cleaning secondary ports . . . what's the best/safest solvent? If it were a few years ago I might just grab some Berryman's and spray away, but after hearing/reading about the damage those harsh solvents do to some components, I'm less eager for the easy way out. On the flip side, something like GooGone is probably safe, but would take forever to remove the build-up. As much as I would like to pop off the fuel rail, detach the LIM and clean down deeper (and perhaps dremel off the secondary shafts), I think I'll just clean what I can for now with it on. Paul said he went rhrough about 5 cans of spray and used a paint brush along with fingers to clean out ports. On mine, it's so dark with carbon, I really can't see how far down it needs cleaning.

    Throwing this out there since it's on my mind . . . would anybody have the ability to 1) open up their IMRC with an unbroken plastic wheel inside, 2) remove it, and 3) measure all necessary dimensions needed for reproducing? It would be nice if Ford had made this part out of aluminum and perhaps the cable a bit thicker, but a heavy accumulation of crud in secondaries would likely win the war eventually. My old IMRC is sitting in garage with cable intact but plastic wheel in pieces.
     
  20. GEN 3 SHO FAN

    GEN 3 SHO FAN SHO Member

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    All Duratech motors of these years (2.5, / 3.0 and our) had the same IMRC motor even if their box weren't identical. You can repair/exchange an IMRC by another one coming from a different motor (2.5 and 3.0 will not be "bolt and play" but you can tighten them enought to be usable with their box).

    Assembly : F6DZ-9L492-AA / 9J459 non-SHO (190.00$ new)

    Long story short, you can find these parts easely at a scrapyard and keep spares for bad days (Cougar, Mystique sport, Taurus 24v, etc.).

    I don't want create you problems but if you want to restore it in his original shape, parts can broke again. It's not only the IMRC wheel that may broke, the end of cable too (plastic clip). And I rode something on a single secondarie can also stop moving even if the support commands to open them (seems that even screws on them can broke).

    On my advice, best safe set up is keeping secondaries open and put a catch can to help. I must admit after reading you here that mine is far from perfect tough.

    I will send photo of my set up. It will give you ideas for yours at least. You can make a PCV catch can when the motor is assembled.
     

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