Gen 3 Subframe Mod

Discussion in 'Gen 1 & 2 - Suspension, Brakes & Body' started by javve, May 27, 2012.

  1. sperold

    sperold Last to Know Supporting Member

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    Sticky this^^^^^
    All I know is, about 5 years ago someone posted a great how-to method of testing a used blend door actuator while it was out of the car using a couple of flashlight batteries. I think it even gave the pin connector information so you could do it in the car as well.
    I can't find that one anymore.
    Then there was a great write up on how to remove the dreaded purple window tint and install new tint. It had a video, and it used a Conair portable steamer that was under $50.00.
    I can't find that one anymore.

    I could go on, but you get the picture.
     
  2. SHOtime2511

    SHOtime2511 CGP

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    The forum had a large data crash a few years back.
    Many very useful threads were lost.
     
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  3. sperold

    sperold Last to Know Supporting Member

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    I lost sight of this thread and found it by searching for "sticky worthy", so even this software wants to see this thing get a sticky.
     
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  4. SHOPLUS

    SHOPLUS New Member

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    Will the ABS sensors work with the GEN I ABS system? I know there is a clearance issue where the GEN I/II sensors are too far away when mounted in GEN 3 Hubs.
    Also, how does one control for having/not having the front divot? is it the earlier Gen3 subframes that have the divot or the later? For example if 97-97 cars may or may not have them could one get a 98-99 subframe and be able to avoid the divot problem?
    As far as the ZF rack goes, correct me if I am wrong, the SLO and SHO both have a ZF rack
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2012
  5. kevinspann

    kevinspann 87 Octane

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    Use the gen 3 sensors, they plug right in. All of the subframes have the "divot", it's not really a divot so much as a large recessed area.

    Only 96-99 SHOs use the ZF rack. It is not necessary for the swap.
     
  6. rubydist

    rubydist SHO Master Staff Member Super Moderators

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    iirc, it is not the length of engagement that is the issue on the abs sensor, it is the way the wiring pigtail comes off the end on the Gen1/2 and off the side on the Gen3, and that side location is what you want for the Gen3 spindles, so use the Gen3 abs sensors.
     
  7. Art5

    Art5 Active Member

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    I know that this way of swapping subframes are was out for years and all, and thanks to all these people who made this way. But what if there was more developed way of swapping subframes now? Easier and cheaper too.
     
  8. rbruso

    rbruso unlikely

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    That hurt a bit to read.

    Barring anyone just making a 3G subframe kit, I don't think you'll find anything that is easier than this. When all is said and done, you're taking a very common, easy to locate subframe and the only heavy modding you need to do is some cutting and welding at ONE of the three mount points (barring the need to shim the front motor mount depending on the model year of the subframe). Then the whole shebang bolts right up without having to fab any mounts and you get:
    • bolt on wheel bearings
    • aluminum hubs
    • better lower control arm design
    • better suspension geometry

    Oh, and the ability to swap a stock subframe back on in case you sell your current car.

    The only reason I don't have a 3G subframe in Lola yet is because I've been in the process of moving. I did make sure to harvest the trans mount off of my parts car before it was hauled off, though. And now I'm in a city with more than one scrapyard, so when I'm settled I'll surely be doing some yard diving.

    Also, for us '89 folks, the ABS sensor issue just doesn't exist. :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2012
  9. zak

    zak SHO Member

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    NESHO was making a Gen 3 conversion kit and may still be offering them.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2012
  10. ShadetreeSHOguy

    ShadetreeSHOguy Postwhore

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    Ok, question, what about us ATX guys out here? Any pics or input on re-positioning of the motor and trans mounts, if any?
     
  11. kevinspann

    kevinspann 87 Octane

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    Raise and move over the front mount hole and that's it. Trans mount is the same
     
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  12. Art5

    Art5 Active Member

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    NESHO makes the whole kit for sale, but shipping of that kit is very expensive. That would be cheaper to buy a different car, then make subframe swap and all the little things. The whole kit that Kirk sales is around $750 and then then shipping could cost you from 400 to 800. That's a lot of money, I think. If you buy subframe with all the things, that will cost you from $200, but you need to go and buy it somewhere first. Travelling would cost you time and other expenses, then you would need to modify everything yourself, which includes cutting and welding etc. I can go on, but at the end there is still a lot of money spent in this kind of swap. There is one car in New York driving around that has much simpler kit used to do subframe swap. Unfortunately time and current weather is holding up from developing this kit, but second car is about to hit the road with this kit very soon.
     
  13. whiteguy3

    whiteguy3 Scott MacIntire

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    Piece of cake. I believe i had the first GEN 3 Subframe swapped GEN 2 ATX; it was well worth it. Everything is the same as the MTX without the trans mount fabrication.

    BTW, the swap cost me roughly $250 after everything was said and done. Not that expensive. Drew's (ShoAmo) swap cost him about the same. I did the welding which of course was free. We have done 2 cars locally using good used jy frames and charged $650 installed. It's only expensive if you pay someone else to do it...But everything on a car is relatively expensive when your paying a shop or someone else to do it ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2012
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  14. Art5

    Art5 Active Member

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    it is not a cheap option if you paying for every job in it.
     
  15. whiteguy3

    whiteguy3 Scott MacIntire

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    I have no idea what you mean by that.
     
  16. Art5

    Art5 Active Member

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    I mean, that it is not like you're adding air intake to your car. Swapping subframes is similar to swapping motors. For someone handy that could be no problem, for others it is a bank breaker.
     
  17. christiansho

    christiansho Member

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    is there a check list of what works and what doesnt when you do the gen 3 subframe mod to a gen 1 or 2 ?

    will alum sub frame bushings , cobra 13.5 brake upgrade calipers and rotors , cv shafts , abs sensors ... all work from the gen 1??? if not what exactly do i need to buy to make this projext work? and to convert! wish i had a check list ...

    i know i need a 96-97 frame and gen 3 knuckles ..
    what about sway bar? i can use the 3 or the 1/2 ? and the end links are the same right?

    i can use my current suspension assemble
    i can use current rack with gen 3 bolts
    and brakes should still work
    need to re weld brackets to bolt mtx tranny mount
    front motor mount needs to be re welded and spaced higher?
    and the steering cooler and cruise need s mount welded?

    is there anything else? i will replace ball joints and bearings and can you replace the whole lower control arm? or are the bushings replacable??

    once its all done i want to powdercoat in in satin black so its always clean looking

    let me know if i forgot anything????
     
  18. rubydist

    rubydist SHO Master Staff Member Super Moderators

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    you can use aluminum subframe bushings, but I would not - the Gen3 ones on the Gen3 subframe are the best combination, imho.

    You will need to mount the brakes to the Gen3 knuckles, and the knuckles are machined the same as 94/95 knuckles as far as the brake mounting. So you will need a different adapter bracket if you have 90 knuckles now.

    The entire drive line, including cv shafts is used with the new subframe. You want Gen3 abs sensors, which you generally will get with the knuckle. The connector is the same, but the wire comes off the sensor at a 90* angle, which works much better than the straight out wire on the Gen1/2.

    The sway bar you have now will work fine. You do need the sway bar mount (clamp) brackets and rubber pieces from the Gen3 subframe. The end links are the same.

    You need Gen3 tie rod ends.

    Front motor mount does not need re-welded, the hole in the subframe needs moved to the left 2" and spaced up about 1/2".

    You can replace the whole lower control arm and get new ball joint and bushings.

    You need to make or borrow/rent a jig to get the trans mount in the right place.

    Otherwise, I think you have it.
     
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  19. christiansho

    christiansho Member

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    ok great thanks! so whole drivetrain as in my 500+ hp axles will work in the new bearing hub assemble? and no i have 94/95 knucles now , i run the cobra 13.5 inch upgrade . and does anyone offer better bushings for lower control arm? this car is set up for good cornering so if i can stiffin it up before i get it ready and install it i would really like to do that .

    and i love the feel of the alum sub frame bushings... i like it tight and no give . it was one of my favourite mods when i did it over the stock rubber ones :) , and ok ya if i get the thing complete i will just replug in the gen 3 abs sensors , and ok ya the mounts for the sway bar look way furth to the outside of the frame so wasnt sure if the sway bar itself works! and i was refering to the tranny mount being welded... where can i rent or how do i make the jig? and yes thats what i meant about front motor mount , need to be moved ( re drilled) then spaced higher a little (washers .. :) )

    i read about this... and am very eager to do it when i put the blower motor in for this summer , its going to be out so why not do it then! :)

    and for the tie rod ends... why do they need to be changed??? i wonder if these will work? i bought them before and they cost me over 200 bucks! i put the steeda tie rod ends off a mustang on the car!

    http://www.steeda.com/store/steeda-bumpsteer-kit-for-ford-mustang.html

    well i will sournce out all new parts and see how much this is going to cost me .. thanks for the support :)
     
  20. zak

    zak SHO Member

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    Be careful which subframe you use for the donar, the 96 to 97 or 98 use a smaller diameter bolt in the rearward position. The SHOsource lower control arms offer a stiffer forward bushing (less toe changes under pressure) I made the switch and noticed crisper turn in.

    The rear mount will be correct on a SLO subframe, suppose thats already in this thread. I had NESHO weld up my subframe as they have a 3D jig that gets the trans and front mounts in the correct place (height as well as horizontal distances. Used JEM's 1.75 inch tubing approach on the front mount hole this was new to NESHO at the time. Biggest issue is making sure to notch the passenger side to clear the boss that sticks out on the bottom of an MTX.
     

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