Gen 1 Oil Catch Can - Where?

Discussion in 'Engine, Intake, Exhaust and Drive Line' started by DeepPower, Dec 31, 2016.

  1. DeepPower

    DeepPower Searchng4Truth

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    Passive venting the way @broke1 has the advantage of relieving excess crankcase pressure and keeps the intake manifold clean, but it is not effective at removing contaminated air from the crankcase.

    The crankcase ventilation system on the SHO provides vacuum at low RPMs, but that's when blow-by is minimal.
    Blow-by pressure is the highest during acceleration, but that's when vacuum is minimal.
    So the stock crankcase ventilation system on the SHO - really sucks.

    Passive venting like @broke1 might be better than stock because it provides venting at WOT. But according to rumor, it has the disadvantage of letting unmetered (non-MAF) air into the system because the ECU takes this into account. @broke1 you might want to run the codes and see if you get O2 sensor codes saying you're running lean and get back to us.

    In all cases it's crucial on our engines to change the oil either every 3K miles or whenever it's black on the dipstick, whichever comes first.

    @broke1 I strongly suggest you replace your green filters with white ones so you can easily see when they are muddied with oil. Replace often, but a catch-can is really better.

    Electric vacuum pumps with a catch can have the advantage of drawing away contaminated air, and a crankcase vacuum minimizes blow-by while lowering oil loss, and can provide some extra horsepower. The disadvantage is that vacuum pumps often draw 12A or more so if the system is not designed properly (the pump can't be always on) it can neutralize the performance advantage.

    So I'm looking at designing my own system. To start, I'm looking for the biggest catch-can that can fit (I'd like one with a clear bottom), because with a check valve on the outlet, I can get a large catch-can to act as a vacuum reservoir (check valve because PCV valves are too slow). So the catch-can stores vacuum while cruising, and then during acceleration the stored vacuum would suck some air out of the crankcase - this is a huge improvement over stock. I can also later add a vacuum pump to this setup which would only turn on when needed. For the vacuum pump, I'm looking at brushless motors (most reliable), new models (most efficient). This guy did something similar: http://grannys.tripod.com/evac.html .

    This thread is also very good as it has info from an automotive engineer the designs PCV vale systems:
    http://www.northamericanmotoring.co...her-legitimate-oil-catch-can-question-10.html

    Warning - this is all according to my own personal research. I've done little testing on my own.
     
  2. broke1

    broke1 SHO Member

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    http://www.alfitz.com/SHO_Engine_Book.pdf

    You need to look and see where this stuff vents and what it does.

    The vent line under the TB is a crank case vent and the factory valve cover to intake manifold is supposed to be injecting air.

    No o2 codes.....excellent driveabilty with a larger maf and injectors 2x the size of stock.

    Wherever you heard the rumor,chalk it up to an idiot not knowing what they are talking about.....

    I don't see why you guys don't get the SHO is like any other car....nothing really special besides its in a Taurus.....same mods work for it as other cars.
     
    DeepPower likes this.
  3. DeepPower

    DeepPower Searchng4Truth

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    That helps, thanks. From the book, it not only looks like the crankcase ventilation system needs a vacuum (improves performance and reduces oil consumption), but it might also need a catch-can on the fresh air port on the cylinder head, too.
     
  4. broke1

    broke1 SHO Member

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    And where did you see that in the book?

    Because I sure as hell didn't.....

    I do see where it mentions emissions but zero about performance.
     
  5. DeepPower

    DeepPower Searchng4Truth

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    It's not in the book. you need to do some searching and read about crankcase ventilation systems. Start with my post above were I wrote "Electric vacuum pumps with a catch can have the advantage of drawing away contaminated air, and a crankcase vacuum minimizes blow-by while lowering oil loss, and can provide some extra horsepower." Read about why performance cars use crankcase vacuum pumps and why they lower oil loss.
     
  6. Devin

    Devin SHO owner

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    What about this engine is not supposedly like any other engine?

    I'm also curious about which idiots are spreading rumors about the PCV system. Inquiring minds want to know.
     
  7. broke1

    broke1 SHO Member

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    Yea,I read your post,its just incredibly WRONG.

    Performance cars that don't need to pass emissions don't run things like you are planning to gain ring seal or anything else, THEY DO IT BECAUSE OF EMISSIONS.

    Some folks just can't see the forest because of all the trees.....sad.
     
  8. broke1

    broke1 SHO Member

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    Nothing,it's just like any other engine,period.

    I don't know what idiot is spreading rumors,you'd have to speak with Deep Power and ask him where he's getting his bad info from. My bet is the local counter guy at Autozone or Advance.
     
  9. DeepPower

    DeepPower Searchng4Truth

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  10. zak

    zak SHO Member

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    What is different is that there is no check valve (PCV valve) in the system. It uses the three ports on the wall in the primary throttle body to create draw on the crankcase under differing engine load conditions.

    At wide open throttle some gases come back up the vent (from the front valve cover) and enter the throttle body that way.

    I bought one of those $9 BMW PCV cyclones off of Evilbay, but have not tried to fit it to my new SHO, might fit just below the throttlebody have not treid yet. One thought is to let the drawing at the bottom (half inch) go to a > sealed < catch can.

    Anyone that wants to help, have already spent some time trying to find a short U-shaped PCV hose from some other application that is 3/4 inch ID on one end and half inch or 14 mm ID on the other end.
     
  11. broke1

    broke1 SHO Member

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    Big difference between a racing vacuum pump and the electric bs u are talking about.

    How do I know?? I've only run vacuum pumps on my Grand National and my stroker LS for years.

    An electric vacuum pump or crankcase vacuum won't help ring seal and I'm sure if you'd just contact the manufacturer,read a bit more,or talk to an engine builder,they'd set you straight quick.....

    You'd never fit a belt driven vacuum pump(the one that does help ring seal) on a fwd Taurus.

    This is at least the 2nd time I've told u this,I dont know why u won't listen.

    Again,I RUN VACUUM PUMPS ON MY RIDES AND HAVE FOR YEARS.
     
  12. broke1

    broke1 SHO Member

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    You guys must have never heard the saying

    Keep It Simple,Stupid!!

    KISS

    Btw,Granny Tripod copied the vacuum setup I've been running for 10+ years TO STOP OIL LEAKS.

    When you kids own a real high performance car,maybe you'll get it.....

    Recap:

    Belt driven vacuum pump with regulators on the valve cover and a completely sealed engine=better ring seal (this is the setup I run on my stroker turbo LS)

    Electric vacuum pump=brakes for big cams and also a way to stop oil leaks if you have an engine that is prone to leaking like the Buick Turbo v6(this is what I run on my Buick's to stop oil leaks)

    Any vacuum pulled on the crankcase/valve covers thru the intake manifold=emissions crap that DOES NOT and WILL NOT help ring seal in any way and actually hurts performance by introductions oil/combustion vapors into the intake increasing the chance of detonation.


    If you aren't going to pull crankcase vacuum with a belt driven vacuum pump(which are modified emissions pump made to suck more vacuum and handle oil going thru them),then anything else won't gain 1hp.

    I don't know why that's so hard to understand....
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2017
  13. DeepPower

    DeepPower Searchng4Truth

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    @broke1, you need to chill. You also need to re-read this thread because you seem to have a hard time following the discussion.

    To recap (emphasis added)
    K.I.S.S. It's that simple.
    I never mentioned a belt-driven pump. I am interested in reducing oil consumption as a result of oil lost from blowby. I never said anything about reducing emissions.

    Ford put an electric vacuum pump to draw out crankcase vapors on the '01 to '06 Mustangs to (as you wrote) provide a better ring seal and (as you wrote) reduce oil consumption, and also get a possible boost in performance. But, as I wrote, the performance boost needs to be weighed against the current draw of the vacuum pump which can be as high as 12A. Also, as I know from my days working at Ford ETC designing automotive electronics (please see my signature), 1 Amp current draw = 0.1 mpg loss. I don't know the formula for current draw against performance.
     
  14. broke1

    broke1 SHO Member

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    Waste your $$$,I could care less......

    I'm as chill as can be,trust me.

    You are saying you are going to use an electric vacuum for xxxx reasons and I'm telling you if you want that,YOU HAVE TO RUN A MECHANICAL PUMP.

    You can't run an electric vacuum pump continuous on somthing you drive with oil running thru it,you'll kill it quick. But you have convinced yourself otherwise...

    And again,you aren't gonna pull enough vacuum with an electric pump to make a difference with ring seal....

    I run these on my vehicles and have for years,I do a lot of studying before I blindly spend my $$$ and you're just making assumptions.

    I told you I run electric vacuum pumps on my Buicks(actually run a LS1 f body electric pump converted just like granny's). We have dyno'd b4 and after and it makes ZERO difference using Total Seal gapless rings and 22# of boost thru a 70mm turbo(over 720rwhp/850rwtq) It does help TREMENDOUSLY with girdle/oil pan leakage and pushing the rear main seals that Buick v6's are notorious for......

    And I run a mechanical pump on my stroker LS....it's only 620hp NA and over 1000hp on low boost.

    I run open breathers on the SHO and have on the Buicks and many Mustangs.

    And I run a vented catch can/PCV setup on my 620rwhp e55 just because it's what other guys on the internet did(I regret it and will be replacing with breathers)

    What experience are you basing your decisions on?

    I can understand trying new things but electric vacuum pumps have been tried and while the theory is there,time and again it's proven itself not to work for the purpose of ring seal(same with PCV's systems)

    It's that simple and you just don't get it,I'm done.

    BtW,with your line of reasoning,electric superchargers should work great!! They don't.....and an electric pump will never come close to a mechanical....
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2017
  15. broke1

    broke1 SHO Member

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  16. broke1

    broke1 SHO Member

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    I never said an electric vacuum pump would help ring seal,NEVER.

    Maybe you should reread my posts.

    Don't know what your sig says but if you are a electrical Engineer for Ford,you'd know electric vacuum pumps aren't made to work continuously and they aren't made to have oil introduced into them.

    Either will kill a pump In short order.

    On my Buicks,I run the one on my race car full time because it's a race car and on my street car it comes on at 2 psi via a Hobbs switch.I've gone thru several but since every1 removes them off LS1's,they're cheap.
     
  17. DeepPower

    DeepPower Searchng4Truth

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    I obviously would not run one continuously. You obviously don't need to run a vacuum pump when the engine is at idle because it is generating vacuum. I would not directly introduce oil into a vacuum pump, that's what the catch-can is for, but a vacuum pump does need to be able to tolerate a bit of oil and gas fumes as no catch-can is perfect.

    As for whether or not an electric vacuum pump with a vacuum switch would generate enough vacuum, well, I'd have to do the math rather than take your frothing-at-the-mouth word for it.
     
  18. RJ-92

    RJ-92 SHO Member

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    I agree.

    I just put a clear fuel filter on there to pic up a bit of the big sludge. I've put nearly 100k miles on several different SHOs over the years and I've never seen the need for a catch can. These cars are port injected. The fuel spray will clean the intake valves and runners. Any crap that collects in the intake means jack ish A DI engine where the intake ports see no fuel spray a catch can can help, a lot. These cars, not so much.

    .
     

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