Engine cooling upgrades?

Discussion in 'V8 - Performance Upgrades' started by gamefanatic, Jun 30, 2017.

  1. gamefanatic

    gamefanatic SHO Member

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    After replacing all my hoses, pump, accumulator, and even the radiator with new stock parts I have seen very little improvements. Where I am at these cars are struggling to keep cool when it gets above 100°F, which is low for us right now.. Need to bump it up the cooling capabilities to the next stage so I can make the climb up the hill with no worries.

    Have any of you messed with upgrading to a cross flow or a dual pass system? I have seen some mention using an electric water pumps, but do they spin the pump any faster? I am thinking the pump is efficient enough, but maybe getting a 4" camshaft pully would improve things a bit? I lack experience with this tech to know what might work the best.

    Right now I am working on setting up evaporative cooling using the wiper fluid tank, mostly since there is button for it built in... Yeah... I know, the windshield wipers turn on, but once I have it all setup, I'll fix that... I have it rigged right now to spray on the condenser, but think I may try to move it so that it sprays right on the radiator which may require some precise locating of the sprayers...
     
  2. 98SF19

    98SF19 AlphaKennyBuddy

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    I don't know about the spray-on idea. Check this thread:
    http://www.shoforum.com/index.php?threads/cooling-on-the-track.112157/#post-1214963
    They're talking about Gen2's, but still some good ideas, such as modifying the splash shield to direct more airflow to radiator, getting a lower temp thermostat, controlling fan turn-on points (tweecer - costs some $$$), even modifying/augmenting the oil cooler. They also mention dual-core radiators, but I see you've just put in a new one. I remember a post where Paul had removed bumper and cut out a bunch of material, supposedly for better cooling.
     
  3. gamefanatic

    gamefanatic SHO Member

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    Well I already have the TweeCer as I couldn't get anywhere with the QuarterHorse (as of yet). I monitor the system through the Torque app and one of the original OBDLink MX adapters to monitor my temps on a daily basis. Turning on the fan's sooner doesn't help as with them on they don't maintain the temps. Obviously not using the A/C does help, but these are daily drivers and depending on the load in the car it's not enough.

    I know that our cars have better air flow control than the Gen2's, so some of those changes have already been done on ours. I have the Gen2 transmission cooler on mine, and that does take a load off the radiator. I should get one of those thermostats on it, as the tranny temps never get above 180°F and would help to maintain temps. Without the tranny cooler it would stay around 210-233°F.
     
  4. gamefanatic

    gamefanatic SHO Member

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    Looking through that article looks like SHOZ123 added on to his radiator using the Hayden universal cooler. He mentioned that he "tapped" in to the coolant lines. Not sure how he went about that, but will look into that more for fitment and adapters. This sounds like exactly what I want to do ultimately...

    Waiting on two Mishimoto MMWHS-38-BK's to arrive so that I can validate any changes I make to the system by monitoring the inlet and outlet temps. I am thinking of using an arduino to do the monitoring as this will give me some logging capabilities. Don't think I will bother with gauges as this point.
    As luck would have it, we are in a cooling trends so I may have few days to get this setup...
     
  5. stephen newberg

    stephen newberg Moderator Staff Member

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    I am guessing he means he used the lines for oil cooling that go through the stock radiator. Basically, you can cut into those and skip the radiator to install a new trans cooler. That was the way I did it, and I am pretty sure I got the basic concept from others that had done the same previously.

    pax, smn
     
  6. gamefanatic

    gamefanatic SHO Member

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    Yeah, I have the Gen2 trans-cooler on one show, and an aftermarket on my other SHO. Just seemed like from his comments he was referring to coolant, which the cooler does advertise being used for... Working on my latest SHO I replaced the radiator yesterday and didn't see a whole lot of room to put yet another cooler, but if I moved things around and did some customization to the supports I could get both the tranny and another coolant cooler in. I'm going to hold off on adding anything until I can get some proper monitoring. I was just looking at monitoring the temps, but I think I need to add a monitor for PSI as well, something that is surprisingly missing from these...

    Again big differences between previous generations and Gen3's is all the additional flow control they put in. The bottom covers, between the bumper and condenser, between the fan shroud and radiator. Looking at Mustangs, the stock versions appear to actually have just slightly smaller surface area, so I would believe these should work. Though my Cadillac dwarfs mine in size and has about the same type of pump design as ours. Obviously they install differently so no go on a swap there..

    One thing I was thinking about, is even though my fans may be working, I wonder if they are flowing as much or spinning as fast as they once were... Might need to do some amperage tests there to see what the current draw on them is...

    Was hoping someone had experience so I didn't get into playing with things too much, but like so much I have learned in life... On the Job Training! :whip:
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2017
  7. Qshiplvr

    Qshiplvr Member

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    Gamefanatic:

    I noticed a link to Mishimoto (still can't figure out how a Japanese surname became the name of a company that is based in Delaware) in an above post but not to the radiator. I have bought their OEM replacement radiator for my Neon, and was VERY impressed by the build quality. It turns out a lot of people like to race the Neon, so they had an upgrade engineered to fit my application. Just for S&Gs I looked for one for the SHO. The only replacement radiator they sell for the Taurus indicates that it is for the 3.0 V6 application, not the 3.4 V8. Does the 3.0 V6 radiator interchange with the 3.4 V8 for a '99 SHO ??? I would think the V8 would put out a LOT more btu's and would overwhelm the heat exchanging capabilities of the V6 radiator, but who knows, what with Ford and cost cutting. The stock '99 SHO radiator seems to still do a good job keeping the temps down, even in 120 F weather, so will put off replacing for now. I sure wish someone would do a set of silicone hoses and that pesky "Y" connector that seems to fail frequently in our V8s. I would spring for a complete cooling system upgrade (aluminum radiator, silicone hoses, clamps, electric fans, etc) in a heartbeat, as I know the number one killer of any engine is heat.
     
  8. Qshiplvr

    Qshiplvr Member

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    While we are on the topic of cooling system upgrades, has anyone ever replaced their camshaft chain-driven water pump with an electric one? Is that a very complicated upgrade/swap?
     
  9. 98SF19

    98SF19 AlphaKennyBuddy

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    This keeps coming up, and I'm interested too. I think Nuke or Gen 3 sho fan posted a link to a viable model. Honestly, I don't have the cajones to slap it on without hearing about others that have tried it.
     
  10. gamefanatic

    gamefanatic SHO Member

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    The Gen3 radiators are all the same. So the 3.0L is the same as the 3.4L. Same can be said for the condenser which bolts to it. I actually pulled the one from my '97 GL to compare this last weekend as I was originally planning to swap, but decided to go for new... Did you have a link to the Mishimoto radiator? I know Mishimoto is a higher end company so I would expect a better build quality from their parts. If nothing else, they should come very nicely wrapped packaging like high end enthusiast computer parts... ;)

    Not sure which "Y" connector you are referring too, but if is the one for the heads under the LIM, I upgraded to a brass version for mine coming from a computer water cooling system.
    https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA9F93X69180

    I was going to go all silicone on my hoses until I realized that the permeation rate of silicone hoses is greater. Typically not suggested for daily drivers, but I don't have experience myself to know how bad that is... I'll probably switch over next summer anyway, working on alignment stuff right now.

    Well we know that a potential load will be removed from the engine by putting a electric motor, but that is something I would like to hear from someone with experience. Seems like when you start adding motors though, you may need to upgrade the alternator as well to handle the extra amps needed... IE) Electric power steering or A/C units. So an need to understand what the system is currently using vs what you want to add should be looked at.
     
  11. gamefanatic

    gamefanatic SHO Member

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    One thing to note about replacement radiators, while it may not be critical, they don't come with the extra padding on the top and bottoms which seal the passages above and below the radiator like the OEM version did. I resolved that by going to Home Depot and getting some 3/4" x 5/16" foam tape. Stuck 3 layers on top of each other for the perfect fit. Not sure if I just did overkill, but I made sure to use some 3M automotive adhesive between each layer.
    On my latest SHO (SHO Foo) it appears that replacing the radiator has helped to make things better, but hasn't been as hot to get a proper test. Though I am satisfied it will likely work once it gets to that point again, probably next week. Still have SHOHisLove which is fighting the heat... I've done all the the changes to it and then some, but still there is a problem so I will focus my tests on it... Maybe I will find something I am not seeing...
     
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  12. GEN 3 SHO FAN

    GEN 3 SHO FAN SHO Member

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    I confirm 3.0 and 3.4 liter have the same rad, I'm running with a used one from a 3.0 liters... I changed it myself and there is absolutely no difference between them. But from OEM part vs. Mishimoto, the last one can be better. (What is the price by the way ?)

    Maybe the "Y" spoken above is probably the big "T" near the right bottom end of the rad which rust like hell and can cause a major leak.

    For info, I never post something about electric waterpump. :)

    Also, I have now an exhaust leak on the Y pipe just after the cat on bank 2 and when I touch too much the gas, the motor heat is rising up at 1/2 - 3/4, easely which was not the case before. :S
     
  13. 98SF19

    98SF19 AlphaKennyBuddy

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  14. sperold

    sperold Last to Know Supporting Member

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    I have a summer only Mustang that I installed an aftermarket cooler ahead of the rad where there is lots of room. But I mounted it on its own hanger, not zip tied to the original rad.
    I did not want to graft into the transmission cooling lines going to the radiator, so I simply installed these lines in the aftermarket cooler. this leaves the radiator with nothing going in or coming out.

    Even though the gauges on Fords are guides only, the heat gauge reads low now. Much lower than it used to.

    Also, an annoying problem I had disappeared with this change. The engine, in the past, would shudder or miss after about an hour into a trip, maybe one miss every 2 minutes. This would be so subtle that a passenger would not notice it, but I did.

    I think the transmission was adding enough heat to the cooling system to make some electronic things run too hot, or my tranny was just running ultra hot and affecting its inputs to my BCM and ECM.

    I recommend this swap, and have not had any negative feedback. The cooler unit was an entry level unit that was really inexpensive and although I bought a fan to go with it, I never installed it, as the setup worked so well without it.

    If you have a winter, you might have to hook up the radiator during the winter as I think it helps on cold conditions. I think you don't get overdrive until a certain temp is achieved in the transmission.
     
  15. Qshiplvr

    Qshiplvr Member

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    Gen 3 SHO fan: The Mishimoto OEM radiator price is $168 for MODEL: R1830-AT.

    Please note that my initial favorable impressions on my first Mishimoto product experience were NOT from their OEM replacement line (plastic end tanks) but from their ALL ALUMINUM race-type high performance line. These are typically $300+ but are ALL ALUMINUM and VERY well made.

    I am willing to take a chance that the extra care and engineering spill over into their OEM line, but won't be able to tell until I decide to redo the entire cooling system.
     
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  16. Qshiplvr

    Qshiplvr Member

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    gamefanatic: What is the "permeation rate" you referred to about Silicone hoses vs rubber hoses? I thought a hose is a hose (assuming the same cross-section and flow characteristics, curves, kinks excepted, etc.)? Do silicone hoses absorb coolant or possibly become permeable (leaky) through the silicone material? My objective is to maximize life of the hose through many heat cycles. I know rubber hoses eventually fail due to degradation of the rubber material as the ozone in the air will attack the material and change the elastomeric characteristics (it becomes brittle, and eventually cracks and fails). I was under the impression that hoses made of silicone don't have this happen so much.

    Edit: Here is the link to the Mishimoto Taurus OEM replacement:

    https://www.mishimoto.com/1996-2007-ford-taurus-replacement-radiator.html
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
  17. gamefanatic

    gamefanatic SHO Member

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    Permeation rate is the rate at which the liquid or gas may leak from the hose over a period of time. Permeation is more an issue with the gas lines, which is why they recommend the solid lines where ever possible and why certain hoses are better than others. I know Auto parts stores (like O'Reilly, Autozone) don't always understand the difference between an 30R7 vs 30R9 and why one is different from the other when trying to sell you gas line for your fuel injected vehicle. They both "technically" will work, but the 30R9 is pressure rated for the higher pressures of fuel injection vs older carburetor styles. On a 3.0L you may get away with 30R7, but the mustang or my Cadillac can get near 80-100PSI on an NA engine which is well beyond the rating of the hose.

    While it may be just looking too much into it, I read permeation rates of silicon lines can reach nearly 1 gallon (water) in a years time. Not a big deal if you think about it especially with a race car which changes the water frequently. Though on your daily driver most people forget about that and might think something wrong or miss-diagnose the problem. Of course I'm only speaking from what I have read, not actual experience with the hoses.

    Regardless of the problems, good silicone hoses will allow for higher pressures and should last longer overall.
     
  18. gamefanatic

    gamefanatic SHO Member

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    I looked at the OEM Mishimoto and didn't see anything that would lead me to believe it would be any better than what you would get from your local parts store. That would be different story if you purchased one of their custom radiators, which I believe would be much better design / quality. Not to mention the "M" logo... :cool:

    For the price and extra shine someone could get one of these OEM styled all aluminum radiators for just a bit more:
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/281962022654

    Only down side is they don't have a lifetime warranty, but that really shouldn't be an issue...
     
  19. Qshiplvr

    Qshiplvr Member

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    gamefanatic:

    Wow, that is a NICE radiator! The "M" logo is just spray paint. I am more concerned with how well it fits, whether any "modification" would need to be done to the existing hole, etc. Do you know of anyone that has used this radiator with good/bad result?
     
  20. GEN 3 SHO FAN

    GEN 3 SHO FAN SHO Member

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    Some months ago during winter another guy was searching (I'm not sure of the term) a kind of double radiator (seems separated internally) to help cooling his motor but never return to me with results of his search. This kind of thing is available for some sport cars but not for our at this day...

    The idea of a taller pulley at the end of the cam seems a good idea, maybe I can check at scrapyard next time to see the options... (3.0 L Duratech use the same principe too.)
     

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