Dirty Girl's stranded

Discussion in 'V8 - Maintenance & Troubleshooting' started by 98SF19, Jan 22, 2020.

  1. 98SF19

    98SF19 AlphaKennyBuddy

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    Yes, that's the answer to the question I was inferring in post 32 above - whether pressure at Schr. valve will be maintained during KOEO. I will check the PATS issue you bring up (wasn't looking for it before) and re: FP, I will ask around about a fuel pressure gauge rental. Thanks!

    EDIT: No, when it first happened, it was a cold day and fuel level was very low. To be honest, it's amazing that the pump has lasted this long considering that I usually run it down to the light or very close before getting gas, and I'm in FLORIDA!
     
  2. outatyme357

    outatyme357 New Member

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    No, it won't maintain pressure - (it will hold a static pressure until you actuate the schrader valve but you won't get more pressure / pump run without cycling the key again OFF->KOEO or the PCM seeing engine revolutions/rotation via the crank position sensor.) The pump will run for 1-2 seconds and stop.

    If you get a pressure gauge this will not be a problem since you can key on / off multiple times and assuming you have a hermetically sealed fuel system (no pressure leaks) you will hit a maximum pressure value after a couple of on off cycles of the ignition and will know what kind of PSI your pump is outputting.

    You can also take a clean dry glass jar / measuring cup and take the drain / purge hose of the fuel pressure tester and hold that down while someone is cycling the ignition switch and drain a few ounces of fuel that way and let it sit for a few minutes and see if the fuel is phase separated (Indicated by the presence of a line in the middle of the cup of fuel with a lighter and darker color above or below it - if you see phase separation it means the fuel has water in it).

    you can figure all this out without dropping the tank.

    Phase seperation looks like what you see at the 52 second mark in this video. (or in the video's preview picture below)


    Depending upon what scantool you have you can graph the crank position sensor / look at the long and short term fuel trims etc.

    you can make a cheap smoke machine if you think it is a bad vacuum leak / fuel trim issue like this (though you should be able to hear a vacuum leak hissing) - if you try this, remember to disconnect the intake tube off the throttle body and put a nitirile glove over it to stop the smoke from leaking out of the intake and help you locate any leaks.

     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2020
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  3. outatyme357

    outatyme357 New Member

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    If the fuel level went very low since we are all running ethanol blended gasoline nowadays there is a distinct possibility that you have a layer of water several inches deep in your fuel tank and that when the level dropped you just filled your fuel lines / manifold with water (if the fuel pressure checks out) The glass jar method i explained above will tell you for sure if it is a water concern.

    Ethanol is very hygroscopic and over time if you aren't in the habit of running the car out of gas or almost out every so often with a gas can full of gas in the trunk, over time you can get an accumulation of water in the fuel tank - you'll never know about it until you run the vehicle low and it gets sucked up in the lines.

    To expand on the fuel pressure tester / glass jar fuel draining method,
    You can also take a rolled up paper towel and dip some of the fuel out of the jar and take it away from the vehicle and light it with a lighter and see if it burns in the event you suspect the entire container you drained using the pressure tester drain hose is all / mostly water. - you can also smell the fuel that came out of the container to see if it smells correct.

    If it turns out you have contaminated fuel, there is a method you can use to apply power to the fuel pump and drain the fuel into a container using a hose at the fuel filter until you get fresh fuel coming out.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2020
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  4. 98SF19

    98SF19 AlphaKennyBuddy

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    I appreciate all the info.
    I thought the water-in-the-gas thing was a bit outlandish when you first brought it up, but considering that the car is by far the least driven of our 3 vehicles, and that a tank of gas in it might last months, I guess it's plausible. Opposing evidence is that fuel from changing fuel filter and all checks @ Schr. valve smelled very strongly of fuel, so I'm leaning away from the water build up. I was able to get the fuel pressure tester last night and will check today.
     
  5. outatyme357

    outatyme357 New Member

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    Yeah, I know it seemed wierd lol
    I was just trying to cover anything i could think of to give you places to check with this.
    Hopefully it is something simple and it can get back to being driven again :)
    Let us know how it goes.
     
  6. 98SF19

    98SF19 AlphaKennyBuddy

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    UPDATE:
    So Dirty Girl sits in my driveway out of commission . . . Got the fuel pressure kit from AutoZone, haven't yet hooked it up (though I did get the gauge prepped with the ford valve adapter - procrastination score 50%!). Projects like this anymore get a quick mental qualification of "Can I get this done before I need to cook, mow, fix that doorknob, pick up/drop off son(s) from this or that, watch the baby for a while before AWA starts chiming, go to store for whatever, do taxes, get resume up-to-date . . . thus the delay. SO,

    I noticed something after tow truck dropped car off . . . a nice puddle of fluid on driveway under passenger side strut area, reddish fluid. My hopes of an easy PS reservoir hose fix were dashed when I noticed that the leak was coming from further aft, specifically the passenger side "boot" of the rack. I was able to get a line of sight to it from underneath and saw several blood red drops on the underside of the black corregated "boot". My fear is that in the process of wrenching the steering wheel around to get car into position (either loading or unloading from tow truck) it popped something in the rack, which is original. Even after wiping off driveway this weekend, there was still a slow leak. The reservoir is about half full. I had a shop replace the high pressure hose about a year and a half ago.

    I will refill with ATF and get back to FP check, during which I will be able to observe the leak. But is replacing rack a PITA?
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2020
  7. luigisho

    luigisho SHO Member

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    I didn't have to do it on a GenIII but generally every rack replacement is a PITA. It's one of those look at the bank account-look at the time to do it yourself and triple that number-- and make a decision. Less disposable cash makes it easier to decide DIY.
     
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  8. E1

    E1 Crash Tested

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    It is a pretty big pain in the A$$, but not impossible.

    You will want air tools. Pretty much mandatory for getting the rack mount nuts off if they are original.

    Jack car high, drop rear subframe bolts and swing rear of subframe down. You CAN sneak it out the wheel well.

    Leave front subframe bolts tight if you can, but if you can't its no big deal because you will need an alignment anyhow.
     
  9. 98SF19

    98SF19 AlphaKennyBuddy

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    Coming from you sir, this strikes fear into my heart . . .

    Thanks for the responses. I did find this:
    https://www.v8sho.com/SHO/SteeringRackRemoveReplace.htm
    Lucky for me, Kdawg is not too far from me. Unlucky for me I won't be able to get car to his place without a tow . . . assuming he's even still in the game and willing to help.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2020
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  10. 98SF19

    98SF19 AlphaKennyBuddy

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    Can someone tell me if the stock ZF rack for the Gen3's had the EVO valve? I see some on Rockauto with it and some without. Had to look up what the heck it was. I guess it "tightens up" steering above 40 mph? I always thought angular momentum of front tires and downforce would do plenty, especially at higher speeds.
     
  11. E1

    E1 Crash Tested

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    I believe that is a 'Yes' to that valve.
     
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  12. 98SF19

    98SF19 AlphaKennyBuddy

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    Still beating this one to death . . .
    Quick question: If the rack had a leak, would it pronounce itself while turning lock to lock with front lifted (key to ACC)? I can't imagine the transmission could spring a leak over the passenger side of rack, especially since the fluid appears as fresh blood-red ATF. The weird thing is that, after doing the above, the leak seems to have stopped, and no additional leaks have occurred.

    I've also removed fuel pump relay and let it crank for a bit, and no additional leak was detected. Will see what happens when I can get it to run for a few seconds.
     
  13. 98SF19

    98SF19 AlphaKennyBuddy

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    PS fluid (ATF) leak is back.

    But latest re: fuel pressure:
    Discovered I had to wrench on the Ford hose fitting before attaching the fuel pressure gauge hose. The first has a hex sleeve for wrenching, the end of hose did not. So, cranked up the car and with IAC detached, had to give it gas to keep running. After about 15 seconds, gauge got as high as 5 or 6 psi, but no higher. Seemed to hold for a while and even went up slightly after engine off. I'll check flow to fuel filter in ACC with it disconnected, and maybe supply line at fuel rail, but anybody ever have the issue be obstructed fuel pressure regulator?
     
  14. luigisho

    luigisho SHO Member

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    I don't remember that being a big issue in the past, but these things are so old now anything could fail realistically.
     
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  15. E1

    E1 Crash Tested

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    Many moons ago, Carter (Arkansho) had a fuel rail delaminate its chrome on the inside. It was like flakes of shiny fish food flying around in there and would clog up his fuel return path or random injectors..
    Shut off the car, the flakes settle, car would run for a while mysteriously. Until it did it again.

    You could try to pull the fuel rail and back-flush it and see what comes out, I suppose.
     
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  16. 98SF19

    98SF19 AlphaKennyBuddy

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    Interesting anecdote Eric. Yes, it was Carter's motor paint job that got me interested in the bright yellow . . .
    What was the verdict on what caused that, maybe air getting inside? I've never heard of that happening.
    When I removed the butterflies and shafts a couple of years ago, I had disconnected the fuel rail at the supply and return lines and left on LIM for the work. I bagged and wrapped the lines going back, but rail connections were left open, probably for a week or more. If air getting in is a likely cause, that might be it . . . But this doesn't address the 5-10 psi of fuel pressure observed.

    Someone suggested disconnecting rear line to fuel filter and turning key to ACC. I shoulda done that a while ago . . . I'm hoping that it's a weak stream, but even 5 psi may seem like enough from that small hose, as it's enough to make a 15 ft+ vertical column ((2.31*5)/0.74). I'm hoping the fuel pressure kit includes a way to measure psi from this line, but I'm not holding my breath.
     
  17. E1

    E1 Crash Tested

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    Low fuel pressure sounds like malfunction in FPR. NO fuel pressure would be bad / not running pump.

    Carter never found out why it happened, just changed fuel rail. Never seen it since.

    I probably got a fuel rail or two around here somewhere if you find you need one.
     
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  18. luigisho

    luigisho SHO Member

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  19. 98SF19

    98SF19 AlphaKennyBuddy

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    Thanks Luigi. The first one has max pressure of 15 psi and for made for carburetor setups. I guess they used lower pressure? From memory of other posts, I believe normal Gen 3 pressure is around 40 psi. The other two look legit, especially the ones with sensor plug. BTW does somebody know the exact hose sizes at the filter? Can't easily find it on net.

    To add another facet to this thread, it would be nice if the G3 A pillar clusters were still available. Would be helpful at this stage in the cars life to have needed info on fuel pressure, trans temp. battery voltage, etc. to better diagnose issues that older cars have.

    I won't even seriously consider it a possibility for group buy at this point - made that mistake more than once.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2020
  20. luigisho

    luigisho SHO Member

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