Crank no Start

Discussion in 'Generation 4 - Maintenance & Troubleshooting' started by Scott Beckett, Sep 9, 2018.

  1. 6500rpm

    6500rpm Quality Always Shoots Straight

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    Not sure how it ties in, but an issue with the theft deterrent system would kill the coils. Also, since you had things pulled apart, check your connections and do a pin drag test on the effected circuit terminal's.
     
  2. Scott Beckett

    Scott Beckett Member

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    Any checks I could do without a scope?

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  3. shaker281

    shaker281 SHO Member

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    Awesome upload on the PDF!

    I am thinking that the ignition coil drivers are situated in each COP (sheet 4 - "typical COP w/ integrated driver") . Correct me if I am wrong.

    According to sheet 1 item 3 - "The current flow, or dwell, through the primary ignition coil is controlled by the PCM by providing a switched ground path through the ignition coil driver to ground. When the ignition coil driver is switched ON, current rapidly builds up to a maximum value, determined by the coil inductance and resistance. When the current is switched OFF, the magnetic field collapses which induces a secondary high voltage surge and the spark plug is fired."

    I believe these are 3 wire COPs (GRD/12V/PCM switched GRD). Since there appears to be no "switched ground path", there is no spark. The violet (VT) leads on each coil should have +12v via 20amp fuse (F68 - sheet 6). Per sheet 5 , one can see that 3 coils have a BLK/VT wire coming from ground (G106) and the other 3 coils have BLK/GN wires coming from ground (G107). Both power and ground sound like they have been verified.

    We know that one critical input to PCM is from CKP and it appears to have an acceptable pulse frequency (>150 rpm). And it appears that CMP signal is also critical.

    There are 4 CMP sensors on this engine - 2 banks, intake and exhaust. I am not certain what might happen if one of them was not functioning. Or which input pins/wires at the PCM connector houses them. The CMP signal is used to "identify the compression stroke of cylinder 1, and to synchronize the firing of the individual coils." And per sheet 3 - "Coil on plug (COP) ignition applications use the CMP sensor signal to select the correct ignition coil to fire."

    Have all the signals from CMP (cam position sensors) to PCM been verified? I would consider that the next step in the troubleshooting/elimination process. All 4 are plugged in, correct?

    Then we need to know what (if any) other signals might be necessary to produce PCM switched coil output, i.e. signals associated with anti-theft. This would require a more in-depth schematic of the PCM internal ignition circuit. Also, I would think if there were an anti-theft issue, it would be producing a dash indicator.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2018
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  4. Scott Beckett

    Scott Beckett Member

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    I am almost certain that the coil drivers are inside the PCM, they are what actually switch the ground.

    Also these coils are to wire, feed-in and switching ground to the PCM. There are also only intake cam position sensors. I don't think the security system is actually causing the problem unless it is malfunctioning in a way that it's not indicating. I have tried 2 different keys and the remote start and the dash Illuminator comes on for about three or four seconds and shuts off. It never blinks nor does it come on again unless I turn the ignition completely off and turn it back on.


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  5. Scott Beckett

    Scott Beckett Member

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    I did try this with the multimeter and clamped it on the two tens on bank one cam position sensor, I didn't get any reading at all set to ac voltage.

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  6. shaker281

    shaker281 SHO Member

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    Is this a 3.5 GTDI (4 cam)?
     
  7. Scott Beckett

    Scott Beckett Member

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    Yes, f150 virgin has four cam sensors, transverse car engine only has the intake sensors

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  8. shaker281

    shaker281 SHO Member

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    Ok, got it. Then that PDF while having some good info appears somewhat misleading.

    Might need a more engine specific schematic. Have you considered swapping the CKP with the engine you took out? Although it has a signal it may not be adequate. A bit of a stretch I know.

    Also do you (or anyone) know if the CKP signal is modified to form a PIP signal to ECM for this engine? If it is , you might want to check PIP at ECM. See two traces at top of sheet 2 of PDF. The PIP signal may be a switched 12v square wave.

    BTW, the more I read, the less I think the CMP is the culprit. See this regarding CMP testing: https://www.freeautomechanic.com/cmp-camshaft-position-sensor.html
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2018
  9. rubydist

    rubydist Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't see where you ever reported the codes from the pcm. The reason they put stored codes is so you know where to look instead of all this wild speculation. Why don't you read the codes and post them? You can get a code reader for less than $15 from Amazon in two days, and this thread is already 5 days old.
     
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  10. Scott Beckett

    Scott Beckett Member

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    I will be posting the codes as soon as I get home, I am currently in Iowa for work. Should be returning tomorrow night and will post

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  11. shaker281

    shaker281 SHO Member

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    Might be useful to record the codes in memory, then clear memory and crank the engine and see which "new' codes get set, if any.
     
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  12. Scott Beckett

    Scott Beckett Member

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    There are the 3 codes in it[​IMG]

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  13. Scott Beckett

    Scott Beckett Member

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    These codes were the one stored in memory, they came back after cleared, and they were the only ones there after a key on engine off

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  14. rubydist

    rubydist Moderator Staff Member

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    Earlier it was suggest you check for blown fuses - did you do that? Sometimes they are hard to see - I usually end up pulling them out one by one to confirm they are still good.

    The lack of communication with the cruise could be a fuse, or it could mean a couple of connectors got reconnected wrong. I know they mostly use unique connector size/shape, but I have had enough times where there were two identical connectors close enough together to cause confusion. So, I would look carefully to eliminate that as a possible cause.

    Its also possible that one or more connectors are not fully seated and the connection(s) are bad.

    Since there are no codes relative to theft or lack of driver to the coils, that suggests that the pcm thinks things are okay, but the signal is not getting through - which leads back to the wrong connectors or not fully seated possibilities.

    I would be looking at those areas very carefully as my next step.
     
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  15. RAYJAY

    RAYJAY WHO ME ?

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    done that got the tee shirt on the connectors I use a number roll to number the connectors, as I'm pulling them apart, it also helps to reconnect them, you always get then one connector that want to hide on you......
     
  16. Scott Beckett

    Scott Beckett Member

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    Can anyone tell me if it's the same part number in both the 2010 EcoBoost and the 2000 13 + EcoBoost for the crankshaft trigger ring?

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  17. Scott Beckett

    Scott Beckett Member

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    I'm getting 0 volts ac on the ckpswhile cranking.

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  18. rubydist

    rubydist Moderator Staff Member

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    unless you have a scope on the crank sensor, I don't think you will see anything. the typical multimeter is way to damped in its response to see those pulses.
     
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  19. Scott Beckett

    Scott Beckett Member

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    Is there a decent inexpensive scope one could buy somewhere?

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  20. Scott Beckett

    Scott Beckett Member

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    I think I may have found my fault.

    from another post in the forums: https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/2011-sho-engine-replace.128938/

    "IDK what will be involved in your engine repair but this just came out on the 9th:

    Taurus, MKS, MKT And Flex - 3.5L GTDI Long Block Replacement Service Tips

    3.5L GTDI replacement long block (6006) engines are shipped with the 2013-2014 cam sensors (6A257), crank sensor (6C315), crank sensor tone wheel (12A227) and coolant inlet tube (8A505). If you are installing a replacement long block engine into a 2010-2012 Taurus, MKS, MKT or Flex vehicle equipped with a 3.5L GTDI engine, the components listed above must be swapped over from the original engine to the replacement long block before the engine is installed into the vehicle. Failing to swap the cam sensors, crank sensor, crankshaft tone wheel and coolant inlet tube before the engine is installed will require the engine to be removed again to complete the repair."

    The Key here is the Tone ring, I left the 2015 tone ring on the engine.

    Could anyone verify that they are in fact different part numbers? 2010-2012 part number is 7t4E-12A227-CB
    I have been scowering the web trying to find the 2013+ part number
     

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