Can Shaft Position Sensor

Discussion in 'Gen 1 & 2 - Emergency Issues - Help & Maintenance' started by Craig, Oct 16, 2020.

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  1. Craig

    Craig Member

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    I have an 89' sho. Does the csps sensor have a gasket or o-ring or does it snug up to the engine on its own. I found some oil in this sensor in the past. I was wandering if the mechanic put a new sensor in without a new gasket or o-ring.

    Thanks.
    Craig Tussey
     
  2. zoomlater

    zoomlater SHO Member Supporting Member

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    The cam position sensor just slips over the metal end. There is an orange gasket inside the electrical connector that can sometime stick when replacing a new cam sensor. You can then end up with two orange gaskets inside the electrical connector which prevents the cam sensor from working properly.

    If you have found oil inside in the past, then the cam seal has failed and needs to replaced along with the cam sensor. The cam seal is further inside the metal end piece that the cam sensor slides over.
     

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  3. Craig

    Craig Member

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    Where can I get the seal??? Is the metal piece the seal?
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2020
  4. zoomlater

    zoomlater SHO Member Supporting Member

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    'The metal piece is not the seal. The metal piece can be removed if you have to replace the cam seal (which goes around the end of the spinning cam and end of the aluminum head). If you do not have any oil in the cam sensor, you don't have to replace the cam seal. You would just replace the cam sensor.

    If you look at the picture, this what you would see if you removed the cam sensor and that metal piece. You can see the black cam seal that sit between the end of the cam and aluminum head

    If you need a cam seal, Shosource has them.

    https://shosource.com/products/ols/products/camshaft-seal-30l32l-sho-89-95
     

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    Last edited: Oct 16, 2020
  5. Craig

    Craig Member

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    Thanks zoomlater. ct.
     
  6. Craig

    Craig Member

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    The saga continues. Initially, when this round began, the car started to buck a little, run rough, and it would die sometimes. Generally, the tach idled at about half the normal rpm setpoint when idling. I ran the Gen 1 diagnostics and got a 19c error code which points to the CID sensor which is the cam shaft position sensor. I had a new sensor put in and it did not fix the problem. The car has the same symptoms.

    The old sensor had oil in it and this mechanic showed me the 2 screws. One was too long and not tightening the sensor down. I don't know if this would allow oil to leak into the sensor. He got 2 matching screws in and said it tightened down. He used an impact wrench (I think thats the right name) to tighten the 2 screws down. I wonder if that could have impacted the sensor.

    Anyhow, I'm getting the same 19c error code and am kind of lost as what to do next. I'm not a mechanic. I just had a new clutch put in and would like to keep the car.

    Any suggestions will be appreciated.

    Craig
    Richmond, KY
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2020
  7. thegreatbriguy

    thegreatbriguy SHO Member

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    I can't imagine tightening those with an impact, but anyway, look for a short in the wiring where it enters the plug that connects to the sensor. Look hard! Thank Area91
     
  8. zoomlater

    zoomlater SHO Member Supporting Member

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    make sure there is only one orange gasket in the connector
     
  9. Irish Pride

    Irish Pride Irish Inside Staff Member Super Moderators

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    Unplug the Cam sensor and start the car. It might take 2 or 3 tries before it will start. Once it's running, see if the problem is still there or not. If it is running better then the problem is associated with the Cam sensor. If it isn't running any better then you have a different problem. Check back after you've tried this.
     
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  10. Craig

    Craig Member

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    Irish Pride, I'll try to do today what you suggest. Can I just reach behind the engine and take the plug out or do I have to move stuff before I can reach it??? I wish I was a more confident mechanic.

    Zoomlater, thanks for the great pictures. I'm thinking that the s-L1600 assembly fits on the base shown in the 6xyZZC5Q. picture. and the cam seal o-ring fits into the circular trough in that picture. Is that right?? And there was 2 gaskets in the sensor seat.

    Also, could you all help me understand this oil leak problem. How does the oil flow into the sensor and where does it come from???

    I'm asking because I've had this problem before, about 14 years ago. I know this because I have this dim memory of having a very similiar experience and went back and checked my records. Indeed, before I understood that the cam shaft position sensor could be contaminated with oil, I had the same symptoms I'm having now - bucking (it was more violent back then according to my records), a wild tach sometimes, rough running, and hard to start and keep running sometimes.

    I had the cam shaft sensor replaced after running diagnostics and getting the 19c ec. but had the same symptoms. I sent a note to the former owners of ShoSource and they told me to look for oil in the sensor housing and there it was. I checked the 1st sensor taken out and it had oil in it.

    I had had the first sensor taken out without knowing to look for the oil and put a new one in that apparently immediately got contaminated. The person at ShoSource didn't say anything about replacing the cam seal if I found oil and the mechanic acted like he knew what to do and when the car came out of the shop, it was running. So I went with that outcome when asking a few more questions would have help me understand what the mechanic had done.

    The sensor had oil in it when I had it taken out this time. Not having the cam seal o-ring or even knowing about it, the mechanic put the new sensor in with the same symptoms occurring again. And at that, I had let what happened 14 years ago happen again,

    The car has been running very well until this latest event although it is using oil. I've planned to have a valve seals/covers job done soon. I'm wondering if the oil leaking through the valve seals could be the source of contamination or is the o-ring the main suspect. Also, is replacing the cam seal a musch bigger job that just doing the sensor. It doeent look to bad, but what do I know? I would like to put the sensor on myself.

    Iknow this has been long winded, Thanks very much for you alls time.

    Craig in Kentucky
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2020
  11. zoomlater

    zoomlater SHO Member Supporting Member

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    You are correct about where the metal assy fits into the area of the engine. Since you found two gaskets in the connector, that is what is causing your current problem. The second gasket is preventing a good connection of the connector to the cam position sensor. Hence, an intermittent signal.
    The oil lubricating the cam is kept inside the engine by the cam seal. The inner portion of the seal goes around the end of the cam, the outer portion of the seal goes around the inside of the cam cap and engine head. The seal is leaking somewhere at these two locations. Hence, a replacement of the cam seal is needed to stop oil from leaking into your new cam sensor.
    Did you remove the extra gasket when you tried to run your engine the second time. Try what Irish Pride recommends, sometime the cam sensor can be bad out of the box.
     
  12. Craig

    Craig Member

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    Yes, the mechanic took care that there was not 2 gaskets on the newly installed unit. Also, I did just do what Irish Pride suggested. I disconnected the sensor, started it, and listened. I turned it off, reconnected the sensor, and started it again. I did it twice and the engine sounded the same to me when the sensor was unconnected and connected.
     
  13. zoomlater

    zoomlater SHO Member Supporting Member

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    With the sensor not connected, did you drive the car to see if it still bucks
     
  14. Craig

    Craig Member

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    No I did not. All the other symptoms seemed the same. I try to drive it. I live on a hill and it was real hard getting it to go up the hill to my home yesterday and then it just took off up the hill. I don't know.
     
  15. Craig

    Craig Member

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    I just drove 100 yards without the sensor connected. It ran fairly smooth and then it would lurch and was erratic. Then it died and I coasted back to my drive. It was hard to start there, but I got it in the garage. The lurching and the bucking seem similiar. Its not running very well connected or not.
     
  16. zoomlater

    zoomlater SHO Member Supporting Member

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    Then there is something else going on if it runs the same with our without the cam sensor connected. Was that the only code that came up, did the mechanic tell you what codes came up
     
  17. Craig

    Craig Member

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    Yes I ran the diagnostics myself. The only error codes were 19c and 67c. That last code is because the clutch safety switch went out and I could not find a replacement. So the mechanic bypassed the switch with a paper clip. Its worked well like that for maybe a year and a half.

    I saw that the electrical tape on the sensor connector had dried out so I pulled it off when I did the disconnect/connect exercise.
     
  18. zoomlater

    zoomlater SHO Member Supporting Member

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    What is the C at the end of the codes you listed? I have a Gen 2 that has three digit codes so I am not familiar with the C at the end. When was the last major service. Is there any oil in the spark plug wells. Refer to the thread below. Code 19 refers to other reasons for issues. Follow the link in the thread below to the SHOPP page for two digit codes

    https://shoforum.com/index.php?thre...d-misfire-under-any-load.141991/#post-1550067
     
  19. NoSlo

    NoSlo GoldMember

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    Once again, the question isn't the actual question.

    Does the problem occur only when the engine has heated up? Does the cutting out intermittently and abruptly dying happen regardless of whether it is idling or accelerating? If yes, plus a memory code 19 for CID/Sensor means you probably have either a dying DIS module or crank position sensor. Check and clean your ground wires at the strut tower and ground strap to the engine at the rear first.

    Oil in the cam sensor years ago should have indicated full 60k service: timing belt and cam and crank oil seals replaced.

    In the picture below, you can see how the (removed) camshaft exits the head at the top left, to the timing belt cog. At the exit, the camshaft goes through a rubber-coated metal donut seal that is pressed in, the wider lip that can be seen. The back head has two seals, because its longer exhaust camshaft also exits the head to the cam position sensor. The seals wear out, letting oil cascade down the back of the timing belt cover (and to the CKP) or into the cam seal.
    [​IMG]
     
  20. Craig

    Craig Member

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    Zoomlater, my gen 1 diagnostic device generates a code and a small code qualifier at the top right of the display. Some of the codes have several code qualifiers which, when you reference the code and qualifier into the code table, result in different error code interpretations.

    Noslo, nice picture and yes the problem occurs after its heated up. The dying, when the sensor is connected, only happens at start. The tach idles at about 5 or 6 k, but doesn't die. When the sensor is not connected, like today, the engine died as I was coming down the street to my house at a stable speed, not idling or accelerating.

    I have tried to maintain the car as well as I can. I live in a small community and if a mechanic has to read a book to understand a procedure, they won't do it. A lot of them refer to themselves as parts replacers and have limited diagnostic ability for my car. And a lot of them are very dishonest.

    I have had the crank and cam position sensors replaced and the timing belt in the last 2 years. All the sensors have been gone through and replaced where needed. The DIS module is about 3 months old.

    Do yo all think that if the cam position sensor has been contaminated, that simply replacing it with a new one without replacing the CAM seal would quickly contaminate the new one. I believe thats what happen to me 14 years ago. You have to take the sensor out to see if there is oil there and we couldn't get a seal locally. So I had them put the new one in hoping I could run a couple days until I ordered one and got it in.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2020

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