Cam failure.... For sure... Rear intake

Discussion in 'V8 - Emergency Issues' started by djacks222, May 5, 2016.

  1. djacks222

    djacks222 Member

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    My 97 sh has suffered from the can failure... The intake can sprocket broke the welds my friend did.. And I think the welds were bad. Well I know that they were.

    Here are pics of so far

    https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B-GvkM12QEbMUlBBcFA5MGoxSFE

    I have the PS bracket off, and only need to drop the exauat manifold and the harmonic balancer to get the timing cover off.

    I have a new head. I need new bolts and gaskets though. Does anyone have advice on timing this vvt???? I have the diagram from v8sho and what not.


    Timing chain tensioner... Should I change it?

    I am not in a hurry to do this again.. So since I have it all apart I want to do everythin . What are some must do's????
     
  2. sperold

    sperold Last to Know Supporting Member

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    Head gaskets can be a problem to find, but do come up from time to time, so you will need to do an exhaustive search. My poor memory seems to recall a company marketing them again, and I believe I saw it on this forum this year. Try to get an official part number and google it, and it should pop up.

    People have coated the old head gaskets ( I believe with some sort of copper paint) and reused them, and you should be able to find information by searching for that topic. I would go back about 5 years at least, as it has not been a topic lately.
     
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  3. GEN 3 SHO FAN

    GEN 3 SHO FAN SHO Member

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    Ok, I will ask to have photos because broken welded cams happens not often. I will be very curious to know the opinions of others owners and welders about these welds. Even the not broken ones seems week to me like they have some bubbles in it. Do you know which cam spin ? Seems to be the front of the rear head.

    I remember yesterday one of your post where you said you had a whinning sound from the motor bay. This cam problem can make a similar sound for some time before crashing too.

    And the post where a guy try to "time" his motor last year. Maybe some infos can be usefull for you.
    http://www.shoforum.com/index.php?threads/1996-sho-cam-sprocket-failure-or-not.130077/

    For head gaskets (if you really want news ones):
    F6DZ-6051-CA (rear) / HG4199R (DNJ engine components)
    F6DZ-6051-DA (front) / HG4199L (DNJ engine components)

    RCM :
    http://www.rcmautomotive.com/id3.html
    (scroll down a little)

    Rocket racing (they also have head bolts but at some price) :
    http://shop.rocketracingshop.com/96-99-FORD-TAURUS-SHO-34-HEAD-GASKET-SET-RR-SHO-HEAD.htm

    There is also a pair on e-bay but the price is a joke...
    http://www.cafr.ebay.ca/itm/FORD-TA...m1c116d4729:m:mM4oXMWIwupFDS3jS5zDl2g&vxp=mtr

    Back order at Rockauto...

    I found some others links, not sure about the reliability however. But price is good.
    http://www.rearcounter.com/F6DZ-6051-CA-parts419158.html

    https://www.fastoemparts.com/parts/1999/FORD/Taurus/index.cfm?action=partDetail&section=ENGINE&group=CYLINDER HEAD & VALVES&subgroup=CYLINDER HEAD & VALVES&component=HEAD GASKET&partnumber=F6DZ6051CA&vehicleid=51759&siteid=214455

    "Parts List For One Head

    Here is a list of parts that I may use when I work on my car this summer (2007, so the prices changed) :

    (2) Upper Intake Manifold Gasket - F6DZ-9439-B - $37.60 ea.
    (2) Lower Intake Manifold Gasket - F6DZ-9439-A - $12.39 ea.
    (1) Center Timing Chain Cover Gasket - F6DZ-6020-CA - $13.18
    (1) RH Timing Chain Cover Gasket - F6DZ-6020-AA - $12.27
    (1) LH Timing Chain Cover Gasket - F6DZ-6020-BA - $12.27
    (1) Timing Chain Cover Crank Seal - F5AZ-6700-A - $7.70
    (1) Rear/Right Head Gasket - F6DZ-6051-CA - $171.17
    (10) Head Bolt - F6DZ-6065-BA -$3.08 ea.
    (10) Head Bolt Washers - F6DZ-6L015-AA - $3.03
    (1) Rear Exhaust Man. Gasket - F6DZ-9448-K7B - $19.53
    (1) Left Hand Valve Cover Gasket - F6DZ-6584-CA – $29.42
    (1) Right Hand Valve Cover Gasket - F6DZ-6584-BA - $30.86
    (8) Cylinder Head Cover Gaskets – F6DZ-6F048-AA - $5.56 ea.
    (2) Cylinder Head Cover Gaskets – F6DZ-6F048-BA - $5.47 ea.
    (2) 3/8” Fuel Line Connection o-rings/Seal 5/16 X .07 - 390846-S96 - $1.64
    (2) 1/2” Fuel Line Connection o-rings/Seal 7/16 X .07 - 390847-S96 - $1.38
    (16) Fuel Injector O-Ring – F6DZ-9229-A – $1.03"

    From an older post here:
    http://www.shoforum.com/index.php?threads/rebuilding-the-v8-motor-lower-end.73610/page-2

    Keep us informed,
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2016
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  4. mrecoolgar

    mrecoolgar SHO NUP

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    I have a rear head gasket and bolts for one head, maybe for both heads.
     
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  5. djacks222

    djacks222 Member

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    Wow everyone and especially gen 3 who fan. The research was extensive and beneficial and thank you very much. I do have a can of copper spray gasket and read the same post that you mentioned regarding spraying the gasket.

    However new bolts and a head gasket would be nice :) maybe @mrecoolgar could you pm me? Of you have the new gasket I'd much rather give you the cash instead of an over under marketed company like eBay lol.

    The welds were very weak and should not have broke if they were done correctly.
    More pics will be uploaded to the folder in the o.p. tonight

    I'm getting all cams re welded and balanced before assembling this motor again too.
    I would have the head off but the exhaust manifold bolts do not want to budge. So I'm going to cut right where the down pipe connects to the cat and pull it all out at once. Then grind the nuts off :)

    Timing seems confusing but do able. Just need to make sure the degrees are set correctly and what not.
    It was the intake cam gear that spun leaving my exhaust valves open to be bent by my pistions. :(....

    Gosh this is crazy. But thank you all for everything that you are doing and for the research that was done. You guys and girls are amazing!!!!
     
  6. sperold

    sperold Last to Know Supporting Member

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    It was the Rocket Racing parts that were mentioned on this forum lately, but after seeing the price, I would look into rebuilding the original gaskets with the copper based paint. That is, unless they are doubled over and generally smashed-up during removal.

    Entire cars with good engines with welded cams have been bought for less money than these gaskets, but I guess that is beside the point.
     
  7. djacks222

    djacks222 Member

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    Update....
    I just got the exhaust manifold bolts off after stripping 2 drives lol

    I also have removed the harmonic balancer and 17mm fit perfectly on the bolt.

    Here are the pics of the harmonic balancer removed

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-GvkM12QEbMRGRqNi1tSW5QeE0/view?usp=drivesdk

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-GvkM12QEbMZE52bGZnMXZaak0/view?usp=drivesdk

    And is this the spray you're talking about??

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-GvkM12QEbMRnpiTW1fLTBkQU0/view?usp=drivesdk

    I used it on my manifold gaskets with great results.
     
  8. GEN 3 SHO FAN

    GEN 3 SHO FAN SHO Member

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    Glad to see that the repairs are in good progress.

    By the way, if you have time, I suggest you to change the crank shaft seal. We can see oil all over it. Mine lost a big quantity of oil between oil changes there when I bought it (same mileage as yours). This seal cost around 8$, maybe less.

    The tensionner (you talked about before) seems solid but it will accumulate some dirt in it. Push air in it, after put oil on it and force it to move it many times. It will be probably ok for another run.

    Mrecoolgar, if you have an internet site, I will be curious to see which parts you have for gen 3 SHO.

    Good luck,
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2016
  9. djacks222

    djacks222 Member

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    Its a bit rainy up here so my work is going to be delayed today.. So I'll get my intake and exhaust cams sent over to my mechanic to be welded today. He has some work cut out for him considering the welds that are currently there.

    The crank seal... This could very well be the culprit as I did burn oil... But not really... Just the motor would burn the oil on the outside that leaked out.

    Egr and sai is completely removed now. I just need caps and a metal block off plate for the exhaust manifolds.

    Also.. I like your thinking on the tensioner it'll save quite a bit of funds to just clean and repair that.

    Should I purchase a new timing chain tensioner? What about secondary chain tensioners? Do these go bad often?

    The intake cam on the rear bank has the bolt thing like the intake cam has on the front bank. Except it is in the middle of the cam. Should this be welded as well?

    Just out of curiosity. I understand the reason to why new head bolts are needed due to the stretching. But why are new head washers needed?
    I ran a google search and just received a bunch of nonsence.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2016
  10. GEN 3 SHO FAN

    GEN 3 SHO FAN SHO Member

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    For timing chain tensionner and chains, I never rode here or on V8SHO that they can fail but I'm not a mechanic. In normal conditions with enough oil, they will work for a long time. But with your cam failure, the hit between piston(s) and valve(s) can be too hard and can collaspe sproket and chain sometime. Eric explain me recently that the chain tensionners work with oil pressure build up but it's all I know. The hit on the chains tensionners may be adbsorbed by the oil pressure. You need a better infos than mine about that.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2016
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  11. djacks222

    djacks222 Member

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  12. djacks222

    djacks222 Member

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    Update...

    The head is just about ready to come off. I just need to cut my down pipe as the exhaust flange is well rusted to the point of disappointment.

    Timing cover... It was a major pita. The idler pulley bolt hit the subframe so I had to lift up my ac lines and wedge the bolt in between them. Then I could finger the pulley off the bolt and let it drop on out the bottom.

    The alternator bracket had like 6 giant bolts located in the rear (or left block) which was a little absurd. Then I had to spin it around and wiggle it out from the bottom too.

    Air conditioner is a pita too as its still attached by one bolt and so is the crank position sensor.

    The bottom two oil pan bolts are removed too. I just had to angle them and jimmy them out.

    After I figure that ac thing out I can pull my wiring harness back a little more but I can't seem to find the dang clips on the ac compressor with it attached to the motor

    Also... I have a tarus sho for parts at my friends house... He says he threw a rod but it sounds a little odd for this motor. So I'll get pics when I go to pull the camshafts.
     
  13. stephen newberg

    stephen newberg Moderator Staff Member

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    I agree the thrown rod is not hugely likely, though of course it is possible. All the rest of your comments are what happens when you shove a V8 and transmission sidways into the hood of what used to be called an intermediate size car. Not a lot of room in there. Hope you knuckles recover soon. :)

    pax, smn
     
  14. djacks222

    djacks222 Member

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    My head bolts just came in :). Now I have cobra coil packs and head bolts..... What else is possible lol since I can't find sho parts and can find cobra parts that are so darn identical...??
     
  15. djacks222

    djacks222 Member

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    Update......

    I have my head and timing cover removed now. And gosh there is alot of carbon built up.

    Makes me want to get the other head off and cleaned up too... But I have to in order to mill it 5 thousand's of an inch.


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-GvkM12QEbMcWM2YUR1d294dTA/view?usp=drivesdk

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-GvkM12QEbMSlpmNk9kZTRacXc/view?usp=drivesdk


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-GvkM12QEbMeHZOdkJLTDBzd1E/view?usp=drivesdk

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-GvkM12QEbMQWpZSHR3bTBUc1k/view?usp=drivesdk

    Just clearing up my post. Vthe cobra head bolts are much longer and thicker... But I am having a machine shop cut and rethread the bolts for me.
     
  16. djacks222

    djacks222 Member

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  17. GEN 3 SHO FAN

    GEN 3 SHO FAN SHO Member

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    What the... it's carbon ? If it's 96, did you take his VIN ?

    I don't recall if we talked before but think about replacing the spark plug seals. I have a small misfire recently and I don't understood why because all coils and plugs were news. After inspection, I found many oil in front wells (5-8) because I managed to change front ones as they are in front and they have less heat, bad idea.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2016
  18. djacks222

    djacks222 Member

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    Man I really wish I could be here help with this gen3shofan, but I am going to let more reply to this.

    However I did get that Taurus who carbon for 150$ so I'll get u the Vin here in a few days when I get back to pull the front head too.

    Here is the start of the can work I did by hand.....
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-GvkM12QEbMMU94cG1ROEtTYnc/view?usp=drivesdk

    Here is a finished pic... Sorry for the quality.
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-GvkM12QEbMaVZYa0hXV3dybzQ/view?usp=drivesdk

    then... Here is a picture of my welds. I had a machine shop weld opposite sides, balanced then I applied two coats of jb weld over the camshaft sprockets and the welds.

    Now I just need to press drill so I can use these CV halfshaft pins in between the two welds then jb weld over the pin.


    This is not happening to me again. And I know if I do it all with my hands that it won't be happening again :)
     
  19. stephen newberg

    stephen newberg Moderator Staff Member

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    If the welds are correctly done there is likely no need to use the pins as well. Just the 2 or 3 properly spaced welds should be enough. I admit I like pins, though, simply because they work so well in very high stress applications.

    pax, smn
     
  20. GEN 3 SHO FAN

    GEN 3 SHO FAN SHO Member

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    Nevermind for the VIN, I tought you took it.

    Do you have all the gaskets for yours repairs or you will put some silicone on them ? I ask it because the one for the timing cover seems impossible to find. Someone ask for one in the past and never return with a place to find them. (I don't have the part # for it.)
     

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