2010 - no key detected, not the fob or battery...

Discussion in 'Generation 4 - Maintenance & Troubleshooting' started by shaker281, Dec 7, 2019.

  1. shaker281

    shaker281 SHO Member

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    After the car was parked for about 5 days I started getting "No Key Detected". Car will start with the fob in the fob holder in the center console. This happens with either fob. I replaced the battery in the fob with a new one that reads 3.2v with a DVM.

    I disconnected the car's 12v battery and charged it, then reconnected the cables. Same issue. Car only starts with fob in holder.

    Also, neither fob is unlocking/locking doors.

    No DTC are set. Innova scanner reads 12.8v from battery while connected to OBD port.

    Any other tests that I can run? I've read here that an "external antenna" in the headliner can be the problem. How hard is that to access or troubleshoot?

    Could this be a fob programming issue and it affects both fobs?

    Found this on Ebay, is it the one in the headliner?

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/2010-FORD-TAURUS-KEYLESS-ENTRY-ANTENNA-6G91-15K603-KB-/181552675752
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2019
  2. SHOdded

    SHOdded SHO Member Supporting Member

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    This appears to be one of 3 passive start antennas, dunno about the headliner antenna ...?
    Front console, rear console, and rear seat locations


    The vehicle options this part fits:

    • Production Date: 06/2009-02/2012
    Ford Part No.: 8M5Z-19D596-A
    Anti Theft Flasher

    [​IMG]
    Base No. 15K603
    Part Description Anti Theft Flasher
    PEPS Back Up Antenna Module. PEPS = Passive Entry/Passive Start , Located In Center Console , Located In Rear Bumper

    Manufacturer Ford. This genuine Ford part is guaranteed by Ford's factory warranty.
     

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  3. SHOdded

    SHOdded SHO Member Supporting Member

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    Operation & Troubleshooting - get ready for some reading, LOL.
     

    Attached Files:

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  4. shaker281

    shaker281 SHO Member

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    I knew I could count on you for an assist SHOdded! Thank you. And yeah, I figured this one would be a biotch. I may be in for a trip to the dealer for the first time since I've owned this car (10 years). I'll read through it all, but I don't think I'll be tearing apart the interior swapping parts at random.

    Plus, this battery IS 5 years old and the car DID sit for about a week untouched right before this happened, so I may just replace the battery before I do anything else. Will need a battery soon anyhow, even though it tests OK, I know it must have been weak after sitting.

    Any idea if the fact that it does not unlock/lock doors is a significant clue?

    Update: further reading seems to be directing me to pinpoint test "O" and the possibility of a faulty Remote Functions Receiver (RFR) module. That sounds like something that would affect doors locking or unlocking remotely.And it looks like the RFR module is in the headliner area

    Also, I don't know if my Innova 3150d would read "B" codes for RFA DTC, but I did not see any. I will check SJB fuses too as soon as I get a chance.

    From the PDF you posted I also found this nugget, which answers one question -
    NOTE: If the battery in the IA key becomes inoperative, place the IA key in the backup transceiver slot to start the vehicle. If the vehicle
    starts, that indicates the IA key is programmed
    , the backup transceiver, its circuitry to the RFA module, the RFA module, the start/stop
    switch and its circuitry to the RFA module, the PCM and all of the driveability components are OK. If the vehicle starts with the IA key in
    the backup slot, but cannot start with the IA key anywhere else in the vehicle interior, 1, 2 or all of the passive start antennas, the RFR
    module, the RFA module, the circuitry between the passive start antennas and the RFR module, or the circuitry between the RFR module,
    the RFA module may be at fault and the IA key battery may also be at fault. There may also be an RF interference issue in the area that is
    causing the problem. If the behavior is intermittent, it is likely an interference issue.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2019
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  5. shaker281

    shaker281 SHO Member

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    If anyone has had a similar experience I'd love to hear anything you've got.

    This is the other thread that I found that sounds similar https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/no-key-detected.112988/

    Note the solution reported was replacing "the external antenna" above the headliner between the moon roof and windshield, which is where the RFR (15K602) is located.

    https://www.fordpartsgiant.com/part...Location=vehicle-modules-and-sensors,,15K602A

    Any advice on dropping the headliner? This might be worth trying if I can get it shipped under $75.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2019
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  6. ridered74

    ridered74 SHO Member

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    I would definitely replace the car battery before taking it to the dealer. I feel like this problem has come up before and it was the battery, but I don't remember that 100% for sure. Five years is more than a lifetime for these cars tho when it comes to the battery.
     
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  7. Johnbigdog

    Johnbigdog SHO Member

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    So in a nutshell: the key fob sends a radio signal to the remote function reciever(rfr). This then relays the request over a LIN circuit to the RFA. The RFA then locks/unlock relays a message over the network to perform a function.

    For passive starting, the start/stop button is pressed. This sends a voltage signal to the Remote Function Actuator. The RFA then activates the passive antennas and sends a radio signal to the fob. The fob sends a second signal to the RFR. The rfr takes this signal and sends the data to the RFA. If the key is good, the rest of the PATS system runs and the car starts. If the RFA does not see a key or the programed key is not seen you get no key detected.

    The backup slot is directly to the RFA. So we know the RFA is partially working.

    Knowing what DTCs are set would be helpfull. If you cant get all dtcs, if you test the power, ground and LIN circuits to the RFR, it is plug and plan and a good cost effective repair before the RFA is replace. It doesnt look like the RFA will set DTCs against the RFR, so it may end up being replaced if you bring it to the dealership as you already read in the diagnostics SHODDed gave you.

    I disagree the 12V battery is at fault if the fob and passive functions are inoperative.

    If you touch the key pad, I would also assume the doors dont unlock? Same with the trunk button?
     
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  8. Sgtmeatsauce1

    Sgtmeatsauce1 2013 SHO +pp

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    Note....if battery is not so good, start there, I had so many miscellaneous quirks until I changed my battery out. Voila, all the bs quirks went away....just saying FYI
     
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  9. shaker281

    shaker281 SHO Member

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    Thank you, great summary! True that the doors do not unlock simply by touching the keypad. the keypad only works if the 5 digit code is entered.

    I also am not hopeful on the 12v battery, but changing it after 5 years doesn't seem like a waste of money either. I will get to it maybe tomorrow.

    My Innova 3150d shows no codes set. I have the battery fully charged and it does pass a load test (850 CCA) FWIW, but it did not start via passive means with a jump start unit attached either.

    If I understand you correctly, it is likely the problem is the RFR, its power, ground, LIN pathway or the circuits within RFA associated with RFR functionality? This is what my thinking has led me to also.

    Would your experience/knowledge lead you to replacing the RFR first? I am not overly concerned about buying a RFR, if it might save a dealership visit.

    I already checked the fuses (12,13,27) from the PDF SHOdded posted, they are all good. On a side note, those fuses are in the passenger compartment fuse box, not the SJB as the PDF indicates.

    Any hints on pulling down the headliner? How is it attached? I've got some very basic trim tools.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2019
  10. SHOdded

    SHOdded SHO Member Supporting Member

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    SJB is the same as pass compartment fuse box :) BJB is the underhood fuse box.

    Boy this is turning into a project!
     
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  11. shaker281

    shaker281 SHO Member

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    LOL on the project part. I generally like a challenge and a project, but it was a busy weekend and it's cold here, plus I ain't getting any younger. I am surprised I didn't throw out my back checking fuses under the dash. Need the jaws-of-life to get me outta there!

    Thanks for the clarification on the fuse box nomenclature, my bad!
     
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  12. shaker281

    shaker281 SHO Member

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    Oh boy! Project indeed!

    All vehicles

    1. Depower the Supplemental Restraint System (SRS). For additional information, refer to Section 501-20B .
    1. Remove the LH and RH A-pillar trim panels. For additional information, refer to A-Pillar Trim Panel in this section.
    1. Disconnect the electrical connector located on the lower LH and RH A-pillar.
      • Remove the wiring harness pin-type retainers.
    1. If equipped, disconnect the safety canopy bridge resistor electrical connector.
    1. Remove the LH and RH sun visor.
      • Remove the 2 sun visor retaining screws.
      • If equipped, disconnect the electrical connectors.
    1. Remove the LH and RH sun visor clips.
      • Remove the sun visor clip screws.
    1. If equipped, disconnect the interior auto-dimming mirror, compass, rain sensing electrical connector(s).
    1. Remove the front and rear assist handles.
      • Open the assist handle retainer screw covers.
      • Remove the assist handle retaining screws.
      • If equipped, disconnect the ambient light electrical connector.
    1. Remove the left rear passenger side door check arm bolt.
      • Remove 1 door check arm bolt from the body.
      • To install, tighten to 25 Nm (18 lb-ft).
    1. Remove the LH and RH front seats. For additional information, refer to Section 501-10 .
    1. Remove the front floor console. For additional information, refer to Section 501-12 .
    1. Flatten the LH and RH carpet against floor and tape into position.
    1. Remove the LH and RH B-pillar trim panels. For additional information, refer to B-Pillar Trim Panel in this section.
    1. Completely remove the left rear door weatherstrip from opening.
    1. Remove the LH and RH C-pillar trim panels. For additional information, refer to C-Pillar Trim Panel in this section.
    1. Lower the door weatherstrips where they contact the headliner.
    1. Remove the 2 trim panel retaining clips from the rear of the headliner.
      • Remove the 2 retaining clips using a pushpin puller.
    Vehicles with roof opening panel

    1. Disconnect the roof opening panel electrical connector.
    Vehicles without roof opening panel

    1. NOTICE: Do not cut below the front reinforcement support or damage to the headliner will occur.

      NOTE: The base headliner front reinforcement support must be cut to allow for flexing when removing through the door opening. Cut the support on the outer side of the reinforcement support rib.

      NOTE: Replacement headliners have been pre-cut.

      Lower the headliner and cut the front reinforcement support.
      • Using a cutoff wheel or suitable cutting tool, cut the support 8 mm (0.314 in) away from both the center support ribs, 20 mm (0.787 in) deep.
    All vehicles

    NOTE: The headliner is made of new material that will allow for specific folding and flexing during removal and installation.

    1. Remove the headliner.
      • Rotate the headliner 90 degrees clockwise and remove the headliner through the left rear door opening.
    1. NOTE: Obtain the 3M™ Duramix™ 4747 Super Fast Adhesive commercially. The 3M™ Duramix™ 4747 Super Fast Adhesives a 2-part adhesive in a 50 ml dual-tube applicator. Depending on the size of the headliner and optional wire harness(es), the purchase of two to five 50 ml tubes is suggested.

      If installing a new headliner, transfer the wire harness in the following sequence:
      1. Using a suitable marking tool, mark the new headliner with the routing and exit points of the wire harness from the original headliner.
      1. Carefully remove the wire harness from the original headliner.
      1. NOTICE: Make sure not to damage the wire harness when cutting the excess adhesive from the wire harness.

        Cut and remove any excess adhesive from the wire harness.
      1. Position the wire harness onto the new headliner and check that the harness has enough length to be connected to the body/roof connectors. Apply tape to temporarily hold the wire harness in that position on the headliner.
      1. NOTE: The 3M™ Duramix™ 4747 Super Fast Adhesive will set in 20 seconds. Continually make sure that the wire harness is routed correctly when applying the adhesive.

        Apply the 3M™ Duramix™ 4747 Super Fast Adhesive in the same location as the factory installed adhesive along the full length of the wire harness-to-headliner to avoid any NVH concern(s).
      1. Transfer all necessary components.
    1. To install, reverse the removal procedure.
     
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  13. SHOdded

    SHOdded SHO Member Supporting Member

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    This is not your grandpa's 1970 Capri, LOL.
     
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  14. Johnbigdog

    Johnbigdog SHO Member

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    I think SHOdded's document shows a picture of the rfr itself. If you have a roof opening pannel you may be able to remove the overhead consol (the front dome light) and the sun visors to be able to reach your hand in there and pull out the module. From the roof opening panel side.

    You might be able to do the same if you have a full headliner from the windshield side.

    My expirience says the RFA is bad, however I hate going after the expensive part first. In later years the RFR changed to a Tire Pressure Module that is on the M.S. CAN network that you could self test and the RFA could set DTCs against.

    There is a good chance the dealership will replace the RFR anyways since it doesn't appear to have any dtcs to set against it to know it's good or bad.

    Edit note.

    You can still use your key fob engine running. If it still doesnt lock the doors it's likely not battery voltage related.

    I dont know if this old of a unit has a battery state of charge pid in the S.J.B. to know if the car is disabling the feature due to what it thinks is a low battery.
     
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  15. shaker281

    shaker281 SHO Member

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    Great info John. Thank you. Exactly what I was looking for. I do have small hands and good dexterity, so I will give that a try I think.

    Edit: So, I go outside to see if, after the car is running, whether the fob will lock/unlock doors. The car has sat for 36 hours with a trickle charger and the fob in it's console holder position. I start it, take the fob from the holder, and the fob does indeed unlock/lock doors. I shut it off and with the fob not in it's console holder, I try a restart and it starts!

    Now both fobs are working again (lock/unlock and normal starting) and everything seems fine! Strangely, I had the battery fully charged (and load tested) 24 hours ago and at that time, it only worked with the fob in it's holder!

    Only thing different FWIW is that I left the trickle charger on and the fob in it's holder over night. Guess I'll replace the 12v battery preemptively, instead of trying to squeeze another year out of it! Thanks to everyone and I'll let you all know if the problem recurs.

    One more thing of note: I never tried the fob lock/unlock function with the car running previously. Maybe that reset or woke something up, after a low battery condition that set this whole thing in motion? IDK, but something to keep in mind.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
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  16. ChuckC

    ChuckC Member

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    2010 SHO with similar issue, battery replace four months ago, batteries in keyfob replaced. Error message when I try to shut the car off "no key detected step on brake to start." Sometimes I have to restart and shut off the car several times to get the warning sounds and message to go away. Dealer could not reproduce the problem, Intermittent maybe once or twice a week.
     
  17. skyshadow07

    skyshadow07 SHO Member

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    I'm having the same on a 2013. Car will unlock and start like everything is fine but I will get an instant "No key detected" error.
     
  18. shaker281

    shaker281 SHO Member

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    Sounds a bit different, like the fob battery is low. Or one of the three antennaes is spotty. Maybe try the fob in different areas of the car. And ALWAYS suspect the 12v battery with electrical problems in this car. The PDF SHOdded posted is relevant to your situation too. If you go to dealer, post the solution please. Every bit of knowledge helps! Good luck.
     
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  19. moonie

    moonie SHO Member

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    I had the same issue and through research discovered that some brands of batteries for these fobs just don't have the juice that others do. Before I found the solution I tried a couple of different brands. The brand that fixed my issue (in both remotes after replacing the batteries) was Energizer. Simpler fix than I expected.
     
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  20. Johnbigdog

    Johnbigdog SHO Member

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    I was getting the no key detected message myself here as the temps got colder. I was lazy and just replaced the button batter with an Energizer lithium. I've never had as good of range with my fob, or the battery has been week for a while.
     
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